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[Veteran_Kiradien] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 17:20:00 - [1] - Quote Skill points in dust seem to be an exponential function - The more you have, the quicker you accrue them; making it all the more impossible for newer players to get their foot in the door and begin to earn kills. This is visibly one of the largest issues for the future and current player-base of Dust. An example of this issue, for example was when I gunned for a HAV the other day; earning points, getting kills, and ending the match with around 200,000 new Skillpoints. When compared to an average game, that is a ridiculous abundance of additional skillpoints, and though it is largely due to the Skill of my driver, compounded with the vehicle's setup, It proves to be a truly dangerous situation; new players won't be able to get their foot moderately close to the door if the door keeps moving farther away. That said, I have a few suggestion points to reduce this issue in order of preference: 1) Initial Spawn Point reduction: No matter how long a player has lived, the number of points acquired from killing them is identical; often, large numbers of points are accrued through the process of "Spawn Camping"; it's far too common of a practice really, especially with the chaotic nature of spawn locations and spawning itself. A simple solution to this would be, rather than giving an immediate +50 for an initial spawn, the player spawns worth only 2 points to the score (And of course 50% for assists), slowly (but multiplicatively) incrementing for around 100 seconds until their value reaches 50 points. To compensate for too many lost points in average gameplay, the final value could also be brought up to ~75 points for long living players. This of course assumes that the Skill Points received are based off of a calculation using the points earned through kills and assists. 2) Skillpoint 'tax brackets' - Similar to the system used in Canada for Income Taxes; this variation would have set fields, where the number of skill points earned per point earned in the game are different. (Ex. Lets say 50 points normally earns 1000 SP, when the player has already earned 50,000 SP in the current game, the 50 points would earn 500 SP instead.) That example may be an exceptionally unbalanced case, and it would take significant tinkering to get the proper brackets and settings, however that would significantly limit the inflation if implemented properly, whilst still allowing players to earn what they can. 3) SP Balancing - At the end of the game, having a final equation to compare and analyze all player skill point gains and preventing them from being vastly different, or setting a reasonable upper limit on Skillpoint Gains. 4) Balancing through player SP comparison - If the former points either fail to work adequately to resolve the issue, or are against the desired gameplay operation, a second, less desirable redundancy can be put into place using the standard deviation between the skillpoints of the victim vs the killer. It is rather self-explanatory, however more computationally intensive and potentially as game-breaking as the issue itself. Several other alternatives are available, and frankly anything that would reduce the inflation of skill points would be appreciated in my books; I just don't want to see the game become completely unwelcoming to new players, as it stands, it is already less welcoming than EVE.
[Veteran_Xocoyol Zaraoul] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 17:26:00 - [2] - Quote Kiradien wrote: Skill points in dust seem to be an exponential function - The more you have, the quicker you accrue them This seemed to have stopped for me once I hit two million SP. SP gain is very predictable right now. Anywho, while these suggestions seem like they would be fine in a normal "pick-up" shooter, they would damage the goal of DUST514 which is a dynamic match making series for the EVE universe, where anyone can be fighting anywhere. If my corp is attacking another corp's planet and we saved up a lot of materials and have older members and more members, I don't want some arbitrary carebear autobalance system to make things fair, i want to steamroll the opposition just like we would in EVE. I want to brutally murder or be murdered, real warfare with no "fairness." I prefer a down and dirty game, though autobalance thingies would be fine for "battlemoon" where it is "just for funsies."
[Veteran_Ethereal3600 3600] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 17:37:00 - [3] - Quote i agree skill points should only get small amounts from each game it should mostly come from the skill timer just like in eve i totaly agree on the spawning its the biggest problem in every fps i was gust makeing a post for this as well ill copy that part of it here as well Spawning- this is easly the single biggest f up in every fps ever made and dust is set up to fix this totaly. the current problem is you can spawn dam near anywere you want even at a base thats still beeing contested this is stupid for both sides as the attackers are dealing with constant and instant renforcements and the defenders are spawning into the line of fire with lots of expancive equipment pluss with a mobile spawn point the attackers are renforcing just as fast now theres no real penility for dieing so players dive in and die in seconds now you have a mosh pit of bunny hopping, spawn death, quick scoping and spawn campers aka the problem with every fps out there makeing dust no diffrent HOW TO FIX IT in dust you spawn via clone bay witch should be a huge installment that is only in 3 places. 1 in a space ship 2 the mcc 3 the main base, this meens more spawing styles and less spawning locations. say you spawn at base you come out of your big test tube take a few seconds to equip and run to the near by hanger were either a player or npc fariys you to certin points on the field as said by your commander. say you spawn at the mcc now you come out of your tube equip and hop into a drone you tell it were to go and it takes you to a certin altitude over a set LZ or mobile LZ marker and you drop in like a awsome parra trooper with cool effect. say you spawn in space you spend a decet amount isk for a drop pod and it hot drops you were ever you need. all while your seeing commanders orders on the battle map telling you were your most needed now your players are spawning instantly but it takes time to equip and be tanken to the fight a good full min give or take now they will die less useing a more practial amount of equipment and they are forced to be more carfull on the field witch will change tactics and encurage more team work also adding a new level of realisim never seen in any game let alone a sifi
[Veteran_Kiradien] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 17:38:00 - [4] - Quote None of these "Balances" would moderately affect your goal of "Steamrolling" The opposition - Only prevent you from gaining 400,000 Skillpoints in the process. I don't intend to completely negate the ability to Earn skillpoints, I just dislike the concept of Skillpoint Farms.
[Veteran_Senkiri Mitsuho] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 17:40:00 - [5] - Quote I think the current problem stems from the fact that for one, it's a sandbox and we're all trying to share... People that have been here, foot in the door since day one are going up against people that got their codes on Thursday... nowhere near equal odds. It's quite likely, in the live game, that these people would never (or not for a while at least) be facing off against each other because the random "Battle Moons" will be for new players to get their feet wet, then when it starts to get serious and you want to play with the big toys, you go out and play with the real mercs in lawlessland. Another thing that I would overall agree with is giving a static amount of SP to the winning team of a match. Sometimes, simply surviving can be a learning experience in and of itself. We should also reduce the importance and impact that killing people has. Right now you can kill 3-4 people in the time span it takes to hack an objective therefore, it is more profitable (in terms of ISK, SP, and e-Peen) to try and accrue as many kills as possible rather than playing towards the objective goals. Again, this is a by-product of having a "just for funsies" "Battle Moon" type game where no one has their hard work, tons of ISK, etc. invested into the planetary infrastructure and control and keeping those things intact.
[Veteran_iwillrock yourworld] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 18:42:00 - [6] - Quote Right now is not the moment o think about "sp gained is too much". We need to play the game, advance and try it all. Its not the real deal.
[Veteran_Ignatius Crumwald] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 18:45:00 - [7] - Quote Right now SP is x4. Also there is an exponential drop off in points earned in successive matches Without x4 you can start earning as low as 2000-6000 per match - even in high kill 30-0 games the most you'll see is 8000.
[Veteran_Resistance 2017] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 19:43:00 - [8] - Quote I think that the skill training system should be just like eve where you que up a list of skills to train and you gain SP just like they do in eve. Even when its to the slow SP gain its still not gonna be hard to farm it. If any thing they should have LP rewards and make it so that you can spend it on limited use stuff. I will admit that i like the fact that you have to train skills to unlock other ones that are hidden. I really hope they make Skill training just like eve.
[Veteran_Tyrion Dunstein] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 22:19:00 - [9] - Quote Resistance 2017 wrote: I really hope they make Skill training just like eve. And I really hope they don't. I see no benefit to doing so. I think this system is better, with the constant SP pool that you spend once you get online. If this was used in EVE, then people wouldn't lose time training due to not being online when a skill ended. It also adds different decision making. You could be saving up for 100k SP, to get a particular skill or level. But when you get close, you have a good game and get well above the total, and realise you could pass on getting that 100k skill for now, and instead use it in that 120k skill which is more useful at this time. It allows for a dynamic of skill choosing that is not available in EVE. So you have to log in and apply the skill points manually, and can't queue skills. I have zero problem with this.
[Veteran_Eco Esper] 0	Posted - 2012.06.02 22:55:00 - [10] - Quote ^ This! I wish EVE could do this as well. I'm not always able to log in and refresh my queue when times up and lose out on valuable sp. Maybe things will change when CREST is implemented and allow for queue adjustments outside of the client.

[Veteran_Kiradien] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 14:35:00 - [11] - Quote This forum is exceptionally good at losing posts and saving the wrong data as a draft - Back to notepad! iwillrock yourworld wrote: Right now is not the moment o think about "sp gained is too much". We need to play the game, advance and try it all. Its not the real deal. The issue is not "sp gained is too much", but the inflation of SP in high skill players. We need to play the game, yes, but our role as beta testers is also to analyze the games features in order to search for ingame mechanics which could potentially hurt the game following its release. There are multitudes of ways in which the high skill players gain an increasing quantity of Skillpoints; and to most ends it is an ideal system to keep people interested and entertained with the game; however at some point, shooting the same person over and over in a short time span, killing them before the screen finishes loading, will become less educational. The player who is killed has less fun, whilst the killer continually gains rediculous quantities of skillpoints. The Inflation gained by these players continuously pushes them further ahead by leaps and bounds whilst holding others back. Whilst I cannot explain it as well as I had before the forum lost my post; this really does seem like a mechanic which could severely hurt the game. I want to see Dust do well after release, and not just turn into another CoD or Battlefield clone. Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Right now SP is x4. Also there is an exponential drop off in points earned in successive matches Without x4 you can start earning as low as 2000-6000 per match - even in high kill 30-0 games the most you'll see is 8000. Maybe my math is rusty, but a 19-0 game I recieved 200,000 SP - 200,000/4=50,000 My Mean SP gain is around 60,000 - 60,000/4=15,000 Both are quite noticably higher than 8,000 - and the difference between the inflated game and the standard is all the more noticable. Senkiri Mitsuho wrote: I think the current problem stems from the fact that for one, it's a sandbox and we're all trying to share... People that have been here, foot in the door since day one are going up against people that got their codes on Thursday... nowhere near equal odds. It's quite likely, in the live game, that these people would never (or not for a while at least) be facing off against each other because the random "Battle Moons" will be for new players to get their feet wet, then when it starts to get serious and you want to play with the big toys, you go out and play with the real mercs in lawlessland. Such a nice ideal world where people do such kind things in a sandbox! Goonswarm must stay completely out of highsec and Jita now too, right? It seems as though my main point is being overlooked - Skillpoint gains on average are good, the outliers are simply too large - if CCP graphed out the averages and maximums per game, the issue should be completely clear. One game where I earned 60,000 another player supposedly earned 600,000 - With higher skillpoints, the inflation will always exist, it is simply a degree of how much, where you would like the line curved - or if you would like to leave it straight. There are more points to make, and explanations to take but simply put; people will always grind when they can - Letting it ruin the final game would truly be wasteful.
[Veteran_Nahlvat] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 14:46:00 - [12] - Quote Active skilling feels a bit to generous and doesn't look like it promotes specialization.
[Veteran_Doctor Spankit] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 16:02:00 - [13] - Quote Issue: Rich get richer, poor stay poor. Noob farming, and a need to discourage noob farming. problem you want to avoid: Dumbing down the game, penalizing players for doing well Best Solution: A very LIGHT diminishing returns system in any Highsec battle, with a cap and long tail so not to discourage people from caring about being perfect and slaughtering the other team. Keep the system exactly the same as it is now, but as you do the same point generating action (kills, vehicle kills, healing/fixing/hacking etc etc) you will get diminishing returns, in the form of 10% less each time, until you get down to 30-40% This system should only apply to battles that newer players would frequent. I.E. High sec. Having a team of super skilled players spending all their time farming new players for quick easy money, is just not healthy, especially since there is going to be a CLEAR line between players taht are prepared for the in depthness of DUST, and people just looking to try out a new game. I love the hands off approach CCP has with EVE. I remember nervously mining while I saw 5 really fancy evil looking ships flew by.... and that's a real world. But DUST... is different. realistically... why would a corporation pay you extra money for beating a defeated team? If you smash the opposition and get the territory taken... job is done. And now your jsut wasting your employers money. In Null sec... smashing the enemy team is the name of the game. No one wants to have their reward diminished, but if you don't reward people for fighting their own skill level... there will be no incentive for good players to fight good players, because they make WAY more money fighting noobs.
[Veteran_Max Craeus] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 17:47:00 - [14] - Quote Doctor Spankit wrote: But DUST... is different. realistically... why would a corporation pay you extra money for beating a defeated team? If you smash the opposition and get the territory taken... job is done. And now your jsut wasting your employers money. In Null sec... smashing the enemy team is the name of the game. I think you are dead-on here, but missing the point. The question is one of XP gain, not monetary gain. When Dust is live and EVE is integrated, the player corps are going to be footing the bill to hire the mercenaries to either attack targets, or defend them. How much they're willing to pay is going to be the deciding factor... ...for how much ISK you get. The thread, though, is talking about XP, and that doesn't change much, whether it's null-sec, player corp-initiated stuff, or NPC corp "missions". The corp hiring the merc doesn't dole out the XP. So that has to be worked out somehow. I believe there is a "match bonus" of XP at the moment, with a larger chunk going to the victors (which might explain the very large XP "payouts" at the end, even if you haven't done all that much). I basically suck at this game, and I think I might've gotten 6 figures in XP once (after a victory), and usually get somewhere in the low 5-figure mark. The question is, should a player get more/less XP for an action, than another player, based solely on the target? I'm not sure what the answer is, I can see both sides. If the XP is fixed, as it is now, it makes some sense because the cost of the skill training rises exponentially -- so if you're at level 4 of something, you need to kill an exponential number of people to get that XP, so if your capabilities are significantly higher than the average person, that's okay, because you need that advantage to improve in a timely fashion. On the other hand, as was pointed out, this could lead to farming. Go find yourself a room full of noobs to simply pwn and grief and you get tons of XP, while they just get frustrated and possibly leave. I could easily see the argument that the reward for killing an under-skilled player should be lowered -- and killing a much more powerful player should have bonuses (including "kill assist"). That would encourage higher-level players to look for similarly-powerful players, and for noobs to team up to take down more powerful guys. Of course, this gets complicated with the fact that it's not just skill, but equipment. Even if you're a maxed out all-5's player, if you're playing with militia gear, are you really that much better than someone with level 2 skills who fitted good equipment? If you're a low-level guy with a swarm launcher who happened to surprise a high-level sniper with no tank... Was that really "worth" an uber XP point boost? Thinking about it that way, I do have to lean towards the current "fixed reward" idea... Except... I think there's a third idea, between "no earned XP" and "earn XP for in-game actions", and that would be -- only earn XP for winning, and/or completing objectives. To many times, for example, in a Skirmish, I see people just trying to get kills -- and ignoring the fact they're supposed to be blowing up or defending strategic points. Maybe keep points for hacking the strategic goals, and XP bonuses for winning -- but then nix the XP awards for kills, assists, and hacking non-critical structures. In an Ambush scenario, XP awards for kills make sense -- that's the goal of the scenario. But not, then, for hacking things. The goal of every player should be to "win" the match, especially since, in this game, winning and losing have repercussions. The more there is a reward for being in a match, but not actually contributing, the less incentive there is for people to try to team up to win the match. Objective matches (Skirmish) end up with people not caring what happens, figuring they'll get some money just for showing up, and if they can run around hacking enemy equipment for XP and ignoring the real fight, so much the better. ...Max
[Veteran_iwillrock yourworld] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 17:58:00 - [15] - Quote Nahlvat wrote: Active skilling feels a bit to generous and doesn't look like it promotes specialization. Its a beta and its 4x. They need us to progress to be able to TEST everything.
[Veteran_iwillrock yourworld] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 18:02:00 - [16] - Quote Kiradien wrote: Bla bla bla Hehe, sorry, but its a long post. I see your point. I myself get at most 40k. Maybe a solution would be having a "SP pool", where theres a "roof" and depending on win/lose and how well a player performed, their share of the pool would be proportional to this. That way 200k sp could not be gained, becaus ethat would exceed the pool size.
[Veteran_Cantus] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 21:45:00 - [17] - Quote I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly. Are you talking about skillpoints being gained too quickly or are you talking about the number of SP required for every level you advance per skillbook? If it's the former, then I'm not sure about that. If it's the latter, then I have to disagree because Eve Online has operated with that format for 9 years and it's been successful so far.
[Veteran_Cantus] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 21:54:00 - [18] - Quote iwillrock yourworld wrote: Kiradien wrote: Bla bla bla Hehe, sorry, but its a long post. I see your point. I myself get at most 40k. Maybe a solution would be having a "SP pool", where theres a "roof" and depending on win/lose and how well a player performed, their share of the pool would be proportional to this. That way 200k sp could not be gained, becaus ethat would exceed the pool size. That would not be right. If I put in all the effort for those SP, why should I have to be forced to share my gains with others who didn't do so well? Also, from what I see, SP is based very little on the K/D ratio while hacking brings in a lot of SP. If I managed to hack the entire battlefield (somehow) but got no kills but some death on my part, why should almost all of my SP that I fairly gained on my own go to someone else who hacked none? It's every man for himself is what I say. At least that's the mentality I gained since I started playing Eve Online years ago.
[Veteran_NeoprotoD] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 21:55:00 - [19] - Quote I like these ideas written throughout the thread. Diminishing returns XP cap Goal should be to win not to farm. Players should be rewarded for contributing, not just being present. XP divided among members in the same corp/alliance.
[Veteran_Cantus] 0	Posted - 2012.06.03 22:07:00 - [20] - Quote NeoprotoD wrote: I like these ideas written throughout the thread. Diminishing returns XP cap Goal should be to win not to farm. Players should be rewarded for contributing, not just being present. XP divided among members in the same corp/alliance. Hacking is contributing. Also, I saw that being present doesn't earn my any SP. I joined a match that ended only 1 minute after I first spawned. I only earned minimal ISK while getting absolutely no SP at all (which is fair).

[Veteran_Max Craeus] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 01:41:00 - [21] - Quote Cantus wrote: Hacking is contributing. Also, I saw that being present doesn't earn my any SP. I joined a match that ended only 1 minute after I first spawned. I only earned minimal ISK while getting absolutely no SP at all (which is fair). It's not "just" hacking, it's situational. If you're in an Ambush match, the objective is to kill the other players, not hack their stuff. Sure, hacking a gun emplacement could give your side a benefit -- IF you then use it to actually kill the enemy with, but then you're being rewarded for doing your job -- killing the enemy -- and not for simply hacking gear. In a Skirmish match, things are a little bit more strange... Killing defenders is just a means to the goal -- blowing up/taking control of the strategic points. But often I see people who are doing nothing BUT trying to get points by killing defenders, or hacking some gun emplacement on the wrong side of the map, that no one is actually going to use to kill targets. The flip side is more difficult to sense, though. A defender doing his job right shouldn't have to re-hack a strategic point, so... do they get points for killing people only in the vicinity of the strategic point? Only if they're actively caught in the act of hacking a point? It definitely gets fuzzy there. Maybe we just don't worry about it -- for now, you get XP for kills, assists, hacks, just as it is. Maybe gameplay will be emergent -- those people who need a lot of SPs but have a reputation for not actually "winning" maybe suffer from not getting offered contracts... But if those contracts are only limiting (or supplying) the ISK part of the equation, it seems like we might be better considering a reward mechanism that really encourages players to attempt to achieve the mission goals, rather than just "farming SP". ...Max
[Veteran_Nadroj Isk] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 03:07:00 - [22] - Quote I think they should get rid of the skill boosters they promised to have items that you could buy with real money but not put you above anyone well those do they give you more skills and with the skills you can get better stuff
[Veteran_Bob Deorum] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 04:45:00 - [23] - Quote Max Craeus wrote: On the other hand, as was pointed out, this could lead to farming. Go find yourself a room full of noobs to simply pwn and grief and you get tons of XP, while they just get frustrated and possibly leave. I could easily see the argument that the reward for killing an under-skilled player should be lowered -- and killing a much more powerful player should have bonuses (including "kill assist"). That would encourage higher-level players to look for similarly-powerful players, and for noobs to team up to take down more powerful guys. I really like the idea of having a point reward based on the skill points of the player, but maybe not making it a huge amount would offset the scenario suggested.
[Veteran_Cobalt Lavitz] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 05:39:00 - [24] - Quote The exponential sp inflation is an illusion. Nothing to see here, move along. The guys getting more sp need that sp because their stuff costs exponentially more than the lowbies. The lowbies can easily catch up in no time to a competitive level (3-4) for several skills while that vet is spending huge sp just trying to get a V. Additionally, once on TQ, many mercs will be bankrolled by their corps and alliances to ensure good loadouts and skillbooks, eliminating or trivializing sp differences. This in turn brings dust into the realm of being a game of player skill and cunning, tactics and strategy.
[Veteran_Hunter Cazaderon] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 10:00:00 - [25] - Quote Cobalt Lavitz wrote: The exponential sp inflation is an illusion. Nothing to see here, move along. The guys getting more sp need that sp because their stuff costs exponentially more than the lowbies. The lowbies can easily catch up in no time to a competitive level (3-4) for several skills while that vet is spending huge sp just trying to get a V. Additionally, once on TQ, many mercs will be bankrolled by their corps and alliances to ensure good loadouts and skillbooks, eliminating or trivializing sp differences. This in turn brings dust into the realm of being a game of player skill and cunning, tactics and strategy. Thank you very much ! People asking for SP reduction will be the first to cry out loud later on... And once more, i bet that you guys don't even know that SPs are at the moment multiplicated by FOUR at each round so CCP can see how high level equipment dynamic is.
[Veteran_Soven Taliesyn] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 12:54:00 - [26] - Quote Hunter Cazaderon wrote: Thank you very much ! People asking for SP reduction will be the first to cry out loud later on... And once more, i bet that you guys don't even know that SPs are at the moment multiplicated by FOUR at each round so CCP can see how high level equipment dynamic is. It's been mentioned a few times on this thread that it's at 4x. This explains it best, and I completely agree. Kiradien wrote: Skill points in dust seem to be an exponential function - The more you have, the quicker you accrue them; making it all the more impossible for newer players to get their foot in the door and begin to earn kills
[Veteran_Doctor Spankit] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 14:50:00 - [27] - Quote If skill points and ISK is gained at x4 that makes sence.... and will further the need for diminishing returns. And when I was talking about ISK, that same rule can happen to XP. Di inishing returns for grinding the same action. Isn't ISK/SP gain related to amount of points gained in match?
[Veteran_Doctor Spankit] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 14:53:00 - [28] - Quote Another problem you can never weed out: Gamers will always find a way to get an advantage. Its called being good at the game, and understanding how the system works. Just something to keep in mind.... this isn't like other games, as this ground breaking, never tried before experiment is going to have 100's of thousand of players all hitting the game at the same time. Which... if you think about it... is fair.... because anyone joining the game later on.... well... the game is free, so its not like its players who have bee playing a long time's fault for picking up a free game before you.
[Veteran_iwillrock yourworld] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 16:01:00 - [29] - Quote Cantus wrote: iwillrock yourworld wrote: Kiradien wrote: Bla bla bla Hehe, sorry, but its a long post. I see your point. I myself get at most 40k. Maybe a solution would be having a "SP pool", where theres a "roof" and depending on win/lose and how well a player performed, their share of the pool would be proportional to this. That way 200k sp could not be gained, becaus ethat would exceed the pool size. That would not be right. If I put in all the effort for those SP, why should I have to be forced to share my gains with others who didn't do so well? Also, from what I see, SP is based very little on the K/D ratio while hacking brings in a lot of SP. If I managed to hack the entire battlefield (somehow) but got no kills but some death on my part, why should almost all of my SP that I fairly gained on my own go to someone else who hacked none? It's every man for himself is what I say. At least that's the mentality I gained since I started playing Eve Online years ago. Strange, the feeling i have playing EVE is that groups are above the individual, so probably we play in diferent arreas / alliances :) Anyway, Dust must encourage team play and not individual play. Teams that dont act like that are bound to lose.
[Veteran_iwillrock yourworld] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 16:06:00 - [30] - Quote Doctor Spankit wrote: Another problem you can never weed out: Gamers will always find a way to get an advantage. Its called being good at the game, and understanding how the system works. Just something to keep in mind.... this isn't like other games, as this ground breaking, never tried before experiment is going to have 100's of thousand of players all hitting the game at the same time. Which... if you think about it... is fair.... because anyone joining the game later on.... well... the game is free, so its not like its players who have bee playing a long time's fault for picking up a free game before you. And as in EVE the max level to everything is 5. New players just need to focus and especialize, and in no time they will be on par with more seasoned players. Besides that, maybe there should have in place a "spot mechanic" that would give SP fro scouts that run in front an dlocate and track targets, that way noobs would have a utility in the battlefield same as the Rifter newbros have on EVE. Thats the beauty of EVE, where even the noobs can participate effectivelly on a combat involving veterans. I hope that is reflected in Dust.

[Veteran_Alistir Straylight] 0	Posted - 2012.06.04 18:14:00 - [31] - Quote Max Craeus wrote: Cantus wrote: Hacking is contributing. Also, I saw that being present doesn't earn my any SP. I joined a match that ended only 1 minute after I first spawned. I only earned minimal ISK while getting absolutely no SP at all (which is fair). It's not "just" hacking, it's situational. If you're in an Ambush match, the objective is to kill the other players, not hack their stuff. Sure, hacking a gun emplacement could give your side a benefit -- IF you then use it to actually kill the enemy with, but then you're being rewarded for doing your job -- killing the enemy -- and not for simply hacking gear. In a Skirmish match, things are a little bit more strange... Killing defenders is just a means to the goal -- blowing up/taking control of the strategic points. But often I see people who are doing nothing BUT trying to get points by killing defenders, or hacking some gun emplacement on the wrong side of the map, that no one is actually going to use to kill targets. The flip side is more difficult to sense, though. A defender doing his job right shouldn't have to re-hack a strategic point, so... do they get points for killing people only in the vicinity of the strategic point? Only if they're actively caught in the act of hacking a point? It definitely gets fuzzy there. Maybe we just don't worry about it -- for now, you get XP for kills, assists, hacks, just as it is. Maybe gameplay will be emergent -- those people who need a lot of SPs but have a reputation for not actually "winning" maybe suffer from not getting offered contracts... But if those contracts are only limiting (or supplying) the ISK part of the equation, it seems like we might be better considering a reward mechanism that really encourages players to attempt to achieve the mission goals, rather than just "farming SP". ...Max I would argue that hacking is contributing in almost all instances. The very first thing I do in a Skirmish is move into enemy territory and start hacking things out from under them. Taking a spawn behind enemy lines allows my team to flank, taking a turret removes a defensive structure that can be used against me, taking a supply depot allows me to continue guerrilla warfare. Anything I take they have to spend time to recover and can not be used against me until they do.
[Veteran_Kiradien] 0	Posted - 2012.06.05 14:03:00 - [32] - Quote Cobalt Lavitz wrote: The exponential sp inflation is an illusion. Nothing to see here, move along. The guys getting more sp need that sp because their stuff costs exponentially more than the lowbies. The lowbies can easily catch up in no time to a competitive level (3-4) for several skills while that vet is spending huge sp just trying to get a V. The primary issue is, the newer players are gaining less and less experience as the older players gain more and more, newer players cannot stay alive long enough to kill when they are killed before the screen fades from black. There are no functions to discourage Spawn Camping, Nnothing shapes a path to allow them to ever reach enough points to acquire enough points to compete against certain situations - not within time to keep the game interesting. In some games, the spawn camping and instant death have been so bad that some of the other players ended the match with only 1000-2000 Skillpoints through no fault of their own; Further increasing the inflation of high SP players. Hunter Cazaderon wrote: People asking for SP reduction will be the first to cry out loud later on... I'm sorry but; did you even read the reason for this topic? The issue is not that Skillpoint gains are too high, but that the difference is too high. That is not going to change with the multipier - Instead of being 40,000 and 400,000 it will just be 10,000 and 100,000; The gap remains massive - and significantly worse for the new players - Though in one of my last games the numbers I heared were closer to 4,000 and 600,000, however that is truly an eratic set to use. Doctor Spankit wrote: Gamers will always find a way to get an advantage. Its called being good at the game, and understanding how the system works. Just something to keep in mind.... this isn't like other games, as this ground breaking, never tried before experiment is going to have 100's of thousand of players all hitting the game at the same time. Which... if you think about it... is fair.... because anyone joining the game later on.... well... the game is free, so its not like its players who have bee playing a long time's fault for picking up a free game before you. To the first point - That is the point of the game, to gain an advantage, my whole post is to reduce opportunity for overwhelming advantage - As it stands now, overwhelming advantage is truly abundant. To the second point - people have lives, it does not always allow them to do what they want when they want. Be it work, school, or relationships; life has to take priority over games, but games cannot survive without new blood. New players should start at a disadvantage as they do - I agree! However, there's starting in the Flame's of hell, digging your way out, and there's starting in a sealed vat of plasma - The current game dynamic is akin to the vat of plasma. iwillrock yourworld wrote: And as in EVE the max level to everything is 5. New players just need to focus and especialize, and in no time they will be on par with more seasoned players. And that is the beauty of EVE - sadly it has not transferred to DUST - Skillpoints are earned by killing, an understandable and desirable feature in this style of game - However, when new players join the game and are pounded so far into the ground, earning a total of 5 kills for the entire TEAM, that is an issue. Negligable skill points are earned and time is wasted. Gaining enough points to specialize becomes impossible and attempting to compete begins to feel redundant. Dust will need new players, even long after it's release - Games either grow and thrive, or shrivel and die. Whilst I would personally love to be able to earn an easy 450k skill points per match, I would truly prefer it if the game was capable of driving a constant stream of interested players.
[Veteran_Brian Boyer] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 14:23:00 - [33] - Quote One idea I have had, is that I like the idea of adding a skill point bonus and an isk bonus proportionate to the level of kill. Eve skill development is cool for that type of game, but for FPS, their should be more instant gratification, but this prevents the idea of noob farming for skill points. So say I kill a guy with 400,000 skill points, I would get 400 skill point bonus but if I kill a guy worth 4,000,000 skill points I get a 4000 skill point bonus. So I would have to kill 10 noobs vice someone of equal value to get the same value for my time. Also you can set it up where a kill of 4,000,000 is 4000 and I was able to get 25% of damage I would get 25% of the bonus in this case 1,000 skill point bonus. Also the same for isk and the JITA market value of his dropsuit and mods. So if your kill is wearing 4,000,000 isk of gear then you get 4,000 bonus isk or if you kill a 400,000 isk player you get 400. Now I used 10% but I'm sure the devs would have a better mathematical number and I'm sure the economist will have their own ideas on what the number should be, but I think this is a fairer system.
[Veteran_Rhapsodyy] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 15:46:00 - [34] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Right now SP is x4. Also there is an exponential drop off in points earned in successive matches Without x4 you can start earning as low as 2000-6000 per match - even in high kill 30-0 games the most you'll see is 8000. And correct me if im wrong but there is diminishing returns on SP earnt anyway?
[Veteran_Xocoyol Zaraoul] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 17:30:00 - [35] - Quote Rhapsodyy wrote: And correct me if im wrong but there is diminishing returns on SP earnt anyway? Yes, and it really starts to show after a day of solid playing.


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