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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1415
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Posted - 2015.03.18 10:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:However this carries a high risk of getting your flying death chariot blown to scrap, just like standing in the open carries a high risk of the AV gunner getting blown to chutney.
The big difference being that the AV gunner has a far greater array of cover, meaning that they aren't just standing in the open most of the time.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Most pilots are extremely risk averse. Most AV gunners are anything but risk averse. It's a difference in mindset that allows most AV gunners to soak up losing four or five av fits to kill a single HAV or ADS.
Most pilots are risk averse because vehicles in general have been, and still are, incredibly expensive. There have been periods where the cost has been justified (Chromosome, 1.7) but equally there have been times where the opposite is the case (1.4 Swarms and ADSs costing 600k+)
Also factoring in is that AV doesn't actually need to run full PRO to get full efficiency: a STD MinCom with Wiyrkomi and a STD CR will only run you about 50k ISK, whereas an entirely MLT fit ADS (aside from being trash) will run you about 260k ISK. Not to mention, trading down to ADV AV weaponry is viable as the 5% damage drop is entirely different to the vehicle turret drop of 10% (small turret damage progression is STD/+10% of STD/+20% of STD) making the lower tiers of investment far less worthwhile and arbitrarily inflating cost of operation.
So yes, different mindsets: one can afford to run their play style cheaply and remain relatively effective; the other must run higher end expensive fits or else underperform to the point of irrelevance while still suffering from empty wallet syndrome, which entirely prevents playing the game in the way they wish.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1415
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Posted - 2015.03.18 12:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:All I want is a green light I can turn on and off in the damn cabin to tell my troops when to deploy. But noooooooo every pilot out there these days are just bloodthirsty aerial acrobats who want my precious lumbering aerial buses to be used as some kind of attack helicopter.
Personally, I want the assault dropship to have a good offensive tilt. I do want more transportation gameplay - when I first started in the Beta I was like, "I wanna be a pilot, everything that flies I want to be good at it." But no jets and even with the Incubus being the closest analogue there just isn't any room to intercept short-haul dropships; likewise, there aren't any really good maps where people really want a dropship around and feel bad when they don't have one available because of large expanses to traverse, or natural barriers making ground troops take too long getting around... And providing aerial support to infantry, like an attack chopper would be great, but people apparently think that the ADS doing this is somehow wrong?
Meh, anyway. The game needs to make time for transportation - people just don't care, which is why you rarely see transport ships.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1416
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Posted - 2015.03.18 14:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:your statements are not universally true.
And the assumption that all AV runs mincom is laughable and hilarious. I actually drop full proto for AV usually which means I'm losing a lot. it's also the only way to reliably get the kills. Just because it CAN be done cheaply, that doesn't by any stretch mean it's particularly efficient.
I made no assumption about all AV being MinCom, it was merely an example of an effective AV suit that does not require full PRO. Dont be an ass, I tend to respect your views on V/AV but this was an unnecessary and bad point to nitpick.
As for dropping full PRO, that is your choice - what I mean by that is that you can chose to drop expensive and better suit, or cheaper and slightly less effective suit. With the ADS there is no cheaper alternative, it's pay 200k for the hull minimum, which is an average player's payout in a pub match, plus whatever modules you equip.
Thing is, if an ADS drops without tanking as hard as it can, it will likely die to one AVer - I've messed about with tons of different fits and if I've not got over 2500 shields on my Python or 3600 armour on my Incubus there's pretty much no reason to pull it out, since the first Swarmer on the scene will knock you out of the sky. That's the reason you feel that you must drop PRO to get reliable
For example, I tried running a Python with Damage Mod, around 2300 shields: one CBR7 knocked me down, repeatedly and pretty much no possible response from me would have changed that equation - swappingthe Damage Mod for a booster is unreliable, so it's either tank as hard as possible with more extenders or hardeners or go home, dont even think about creativity in fits. As I said before, even the most cheaply fit ADS runs at around twice the cost of the upper echelon of PRO suits and with most
My crappy, cheap AV Swarm fit costs about 15k, because of BPOs, but would only cost about 22k all told. I dont always get kills, but I'm almost certain to drive an ADS off and if they're not tanked as hard as possible then I'm likely getting the kill.
Point being: if there was a cheaper ADS available, like how the HAVs now can choose to run -I's, then those lower end AV fits would also become more viable due to their being less tanks up vehicles. As is, with the price starting so high, there's no incentive to save money because it will actually cost more in the long run.
Dragging myself back to the topic at hand, what that has to do with this is that the higher fitting resources are incredibly necessary for the dropships, because with a lower base tank (fair enough) it's needed to bring the HP back up to current levels in some ways otherwise the ships might as well never get called in, since one Swarmer will just knock them down like clay pigeons. Less base HP because of more available slots is fine, but trying to reduce the fitting resources too low will just mean that an ADS will be incapable of fitting sufficient tanknto survive.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1426
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Posted - 2015.03.19 09:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:But you only presented one of the AV options, and it's the particular one that people use to justify blanket statements about how AV is overpowered.
So no, it's absolutely not an unnecessary and bad point to nitpick. It is the current fulcrum of 90% of current AV/V argument.
Remove "Min" then, and the point, about cost, is still entirely valid. A decent AV fit, be it an S-I with KFG, or C-I or A-I with CBR7/Wiyrkomi is still reasonably viable compared to a full protofit while costing between 20k (if using ADV) and 60k (if a PRO gun.)
The point remains valid that AV suits have a far greater degree of flexibility in how much they risk; ADSs do not, they have an absolute minimum threshold that is permanently higher than the uppermost limit of the AV suit and any deviation from the top end fits is liable to cost far more due to the discrepancy in fitting efficacy of lower tier modules and turrets.
So yes, nitpicking about specifically MinCom was unnecessary, because it's not the only viable AV suit, it's just the best but that doesn't stop other suits from beings effective.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1427
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Posted - 2015.03.19 11:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Vastly less effective. That is my sticking point. No one ever acknowledges this point. To the point where a triple modded IAFG has slightly more than half the overall DPS of an unmodded wiki swarm.
When people say other suits are also effective the acknowledgement that a viable AV fit for a forge gun or PLC requires proto unless you're running in packs. The standard forge guns are worthless. I have killed tanked gunnlogis with it solo. But that's because the pilot was so stupidly mockworthy I don't even know how he figured out the SP.
That's sort of my point though: a PRO weapon is 'needed' (arguably, since the difference in damage is lower compared to the difference in damage for turrets*) but the rest of suit need not be.
Which is crux of my point above: AV has the option of running a cheap suit while still being able to maximise output to come to a solidly effective midpoint where they are a serious danger while remaining cost effective. The ADS (and even HAVs still, to a degree, have this issue since STD hulls cost as much as a PRO suit, though this is actually a lot more reasonable in Echo since they retain high resilience and power) has no option to reduce it's 'suit' and thus remains a high cost even when fitted with low cost modules.
As I said before, my point is not about the effectiveness of different AV weaponry (I agree that there is a serious imbalance between Swarms, FGs and PLC and that, primarily, stems from application but also an imbalanced DPS) its about the cost effectiveness of AV vs ADSs: the AV player can choose to run cheaper fits to maximise payout and thus sustainability; the ADS cannot.
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That said, I do agree that DPS and application of AV weaponry, in and of themselves, is unbalanced. I am of the opinion that Heavy AV weaponry should always be more effective as AV than any Light AV weapon, due to the simple fact that a Heavy AV weapon requires a far greater sacrifice (requires a Sentinel and a whole separate skill tree, plus all the relative bonuses/drawbacks of the sentinel frame vs the myriad bonuses/drawbacks of all other frames, allowing more flexibility in the engagement for the Light AV.)
Breakin Stuff wrote:I'm actually all for increasing dropship flexibility.
I'm not all for just blithely buffing their EHP to HAV levels. Yes I acknowledge you did not say this. It's a general statement because it is an incredibly common demand.
But any time I suggest alternative methods of increasing survivability (again, this statement is a generalization, not directed at anyone in particular) I get roared at.
I do agree that straight EHP buffs are not a good solution, overall, though there is a sort of minimum threshold for HP, especially while we have lock-on Swarms - an ADS (or any vehicle) must be able to fit sufficient tank to survive three volleys from a Swarmer, or else they are essentially a void fit.
While I'd definitely be up for increasing manoeuvrability (not necessarily speed) as a way to increase survivability for the ADS/DS, in the current state of the game (ie, Swarm central) this just isn't feasible. Frankly, we need a big overhaul of Swarms before a lot of V/AV balance can be achieved, because their simplicity of use seriously infringes on the effectiveness of any other AV weapon.
But I'm losing track of my point. I agree that EHP is not the best method to balance things, but it current ntly is one of the only relevant factors.
Breakin Stuff wrote:So yes. I am nitpicking on valid points. The assertion that I'm nitpicking irrelevancy is allowing the mincom argument to overshadow and hide the actual issues.
I wish I hadn't said MinCom, just Commando and Assault, or something. The point was not about the MinCom z but about how a suit could be fitted to take full advantage of it's offensive capabilities while keeping the suit sustainable in a cost effective manner. The MinCom element was entirely irrelevant to the point I was making (about ISK ratios of ADS vs AV.)
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[[ * Turret vs Infantry Damage Progression:
Infantry weapons increase in damage by 10% per tier:
STD Swarm: 260/missile or 1040/volley; ADV is 286 (10% increase); PRO is 312 (20% increase)
STD FG: 1200; ADV is 1320 (10% increase); PRO is 1440 (20% increase)
Turrets progress illogically:
STD Small Missile: 350 direct/275 splash; ADV is 420/330 (20% increase); PRO is 455/357.5 (30% increase)
STD Small Railgun: 334; ADV is 400.8 (20% increase); PRO is 434.2 (30% increase)
That looks like I'm complaining about having a better increase, but it's more to show that STD is worse off on the turret side of things, because you lose so much more efficacy relatively. Infantry AV loses damage at a reasonable and logical progression; the vehicle turrets have a big drop between ADV/STD, making the option of dropping to a lower tier much more of a bad idea. ]]
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1428
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Posted - 2015.03.19 11:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I'm sold, how about you?
Ok 
I was just concerned we were missing each other in the middle with what we were talking about!
Breakin Stuff wrote:More seriously the problem for dropships isn't EHP.
In fact dropship EHP is why I am desperately trying to fight tooth and nail against any alpha increases for AV weapons, instead poking rate of fire. I would rather take six shots fast to crack an HAV than only need two shots to splash an ADS with an assault forge.
I would love it if AV worked more like that. This character is a full on Sentinel (well, as much as possible with ~15mil SP) and I use FGs plenty when using him. I'd love to see normal FGs at about Assault ROF, and AFGs with like 12-18 rounds in the clip and higher ROF/lower damage. Dunno, just brain dumping, but I'd like things to be less all-or-nothing (on both sides: I had a small missile thread/spreadsheet about an AP variant that was more about saturation than single, slow shots..it just makes more sense...)
But yeah, I'd be up for that from both sides of things.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1428
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Posted - 2015.03.19 12:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
The point is was making was that you can choose how costly your fit is, based on your suit's tier while a dropship does not have that luxury and will, in the case of the ADS, cost more than the most expensive proto suit for just the hull.
And an ADV suit fitted with PRO weapons will be just as effective, offensively, as a PRO suit but for far less ISK investment.
I was making no statement about ease of use (with regards ISK effectiveness anyway, I did mention it with regards internal AV balance) and AV doesn't just get a free pass, though I have to say that my experiences as an AV player dont seem to have had the same "infantry just kill me" tone as many seem to state, but thats anecdotal.
Anyway, point being that AV can use cheap yet still effective enough fits. Not that they're free or anything, but they have a lot more leeway than an ADS does.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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