DUST Search - an eye for an eye

True Adamance wrote:

Sicerly Yaw wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

If my in put means anything I view the situation as something that played out in the following manner.....

Your enemy was in a situation where they were more cohesive and using communication to have an advantage as well as maintaining a high level vehicle superiority [the 4 tanks you mentioned]. You were specifically targeting a superior tier vehicle using a comparatively inferior tier of AV equipment alone.

In this scenario I'd suggest that something on your end did not quite go according to plan and that your follow up on its depleted shields was less than adequate to deal with the kind of HAV that you were attacking.

I'm going to attribute this more of less down to bad luck.

I would agree completely, but I do see an issue where one team is backed into a corner and can no longer function appropriately

that being said you are correct about all of this which is the whole reason why I made this thread, the issue of matchmaking is there to some extant

as things stand my primary goal against tanks will probably be 1 of two options either take them on with my own tanks or use an ASD to do the dirty work from above

Fact of the matter is if you cannot make a viable move your opponent has out played you. If you were encountering multiple Prototype HAV I'd suggest to you that it should take more than a single guy with basic AV to drop one simply for the sheer ISK and now SP cost of ensuring you have all the nifty stuff.

As I said before it could just have been bad luck. I can certainly say that I don't think Tanks are over powered though they might be trending towards the upper echelons of content this build.

I'll be skilling into shield HAV this evening and working with them for a couple of days to put together some feed back and a small beginners tank guide.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:03:00 - [1] - Quote tanks were buffed now av needs a buff, I can see why tanks got a buff but now av is almost practically useless at std and adv I placed proximity explosives threw av nades and even sent out 2 volleys of std swarms, but the tank repped through it and regained everything back in seconds the proximity explosives did put a dent in its shields but nothing more happened after that the tanker simply drove off and re positioned as the match went on more and more tanks joined their side about 4 total I believe my team was massacred and no one seemed to be able to do anything about it not even I in my makeshift tank slayer suit the problem was mostly teamwork as in they had it and we did not they had squads obviously that were tanking were the tankers had two guys watching their flanks at all times, making it hard for av to get anywhere near effective range and they also took out all of the cru's and supply depots then proceeded to camp the default spawn points effective tactic yes but if thats all matches are gonna be now then there needs to be a buff to av or a nerf to tanks lav's and drop ships don't seem to be a problem and im sure people will find ways to deal with this but as far as av and tanks go its not balanced at all as far as I can tell at least judging from my prior experiences where I could take out proto tanks by myself not easy but doable its much harder now to take out even standard ones maybe not so much mlt ones but that might be because the real tankers don't bother using them now I haven't looked at it completely from both sides since I dont have any tank buddies I can tag with so I cant really say if its balanced from the tankers perspective but from my perspective which I have had my fair share of tank usage and I handle AV on a regular basis whether it be the plc, fg, or swarms none of these seem to be doing much to tanks now its pretty ridiculous that even with the recent changes to the starter AV loadouts that a team of 16 players cant even take out 1 out of 4 tanks maybe it was just my team being incompetent but if that is so then the issue of balance in matchmaking arrives, perhaps the fix for this would be the fitting lockout through meta lvl but as things are now av needs a buff just as tanks did if you can kill a merc with one clip why cant you do the same for a tank if you have weapons that are specifically made to take them out? if I place 4 proxies a tank rolling over them should at least be about dead if not dead and if they can rep through the damage then the av weapons need to have more sustained damage the buff to AV nades is great but 3 is not enough anymore maybe before the changes to tanks was implemented but now it takes at least 4 packed nades to take a single tank out and that's if they don't rep back up using modules I do like what was done with tanks but what I don't like is getting camped at base now Im just stating my opinion here and I would like to hear from more experienced tankers and experienced AV users that have skilled into it respectively, what do you guys think are tanks and AV balanced, does AV need a buff? do tanks need a nerf? is everything working as it should? are tanks back in their glory days? will they get spammed and nerfed eventually? is there a better way of fixing this issue? should Jihad LAV's and Jihad Drop ships be the only way to take out tanks other then using a tank of your own? that brings me to my final point if the only way to counter tanks is with tanks then there needs to be a better way to deploy them, because when you try to call one out and the other team sees this they immediately take it out forcing you to have to use AV to try and take them out anyway this seems to be the biggest issue now, myofibs are not a problem and seem to be working as intended
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:07:00 - [2] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: PLC got buffed. AV nades got buffed. Proxy nades got buffed. yes I addressed that and they seem to need a bigger buff the plc got a 13% dmg buff the AV nades got raised to a max of 3 and the proxy explosives take less bandwidth but even so they dont seem to be able to do much even when used together against tanks, If you have a certain fit that you might suggest or something to add that may be missing do tell
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:09:00 - [3] - Quote 1e 3peat wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: the problem was mostly teamwork as in they had it and we did not ^ it would appear so but to think even that 3 people could not take 1 tank out that just seems ridiculous to me the thing about teamwork is that out of the 16 playing only about 5 seemed to be doing anything as far as AV is concerned
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:10:00 - [4] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: AV is fine lmao the proof?
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:11:00 - [5] - Quote i really want you guys to add on to this and not just add useless comments I'm not looking for a nerf or a buff to either side I just want to see where things actually stand
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:15:00 - [6] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Tanks were buffed!? When? Last I checked the Gunlogi can't fit shite. Proto tanks are just called proto to be cool. Madrugars were buffed to a certain extent... However AV is still on a far different playing field than Tanks. Nearly every player has some for of proto/adv AV, AV nades work incredibly well, Swarms are still as skill intensive as sitting back and afk'ng in the redline, Forge guns are more of a threat to tanks than a Railgun, Re's still hit like a brick... Need I go on? yes I would like to see proof from my experience in matches today AV does not seem to be as viable as it used to be, now don't get me wrong it still works wonders against bad tankers but against anyone that has skilled into it even a little they don't seem to do much anymore but I'm fine with being proved wrong just as long as I get some actual proof
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:17:00 - [7] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: i really want you guys to add on to this and not just add useless comments I'm not looking for a nerf or a buff to either side I just want to see where things actually stand You're joking right? Your first sentence had these words in it "Tanks were buffed now av needs a buff, I can see why tanks got a buff but now av is almost practically useless at std and adv "... Come again? Read my post above you'll see the truth it was a statement maybe I need to clarify but I am only stating my opinion I'm not asking any of the devs to do anything I just want to open this discussion to get some solid evidence on where things stand
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:22:00 - [8] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: i really want you guys to add on to this and not just add useless comments I'm not looking for a nerf or a buff to either side I just want to see where things actually stand If you think AV needs a buff, its because you think tanks should be easily soloed with an SL/PLC and AV nades... Used in conjunction with proxies or remotes, you can solo a tank with just this equipment, granted you plan it out (place the EQ first) and then pop them with the weapons. this was my problem in matches I came up behind an unsuspecting tank placed 4 Proxies threw 2 packed nades and as the tank rolled back over the proxies which took its EHP down to about half, he only had about 2k armor left I believe he had somewhere between 3-4k shields I then fired two vollys of a std swarm launcher thinking he would go down since I had stacked 3 bpo damage mods (the event one) well much to my dismay the tank simply rolled away as it regained full armor and shields in under 3 seconds
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:24:00 - [9] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: It was a statement maybe I need to clarify but I am only stating my opinion I'm not asking any of the devs to do anything I just want to open this discussion to get some solid evidence on where things stand K den. Show us some of your solid evidence. Then we can disprove it. If you would kindly go back and reread what was actually written that'd be greatly appreciated, or perhaps I should clarify again I am asking for help from the community to gather opinions and actual data to help me see where things are standing currently in dust as far as tanks an AV is concerned
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:26:00 - [10] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Tanks were buffed!? When? Last I checked the Gunlogi can't fit shite. Proto tanks are just called proto to be cool. Madrugars were buffed to a certain extent... However AV is still on a far different playing field than Tanks. Nearly every player has some for of proto/adv AV, AV nades work incredibly well, Swarms are still as skill intensive as sitting back and afk'ng in the redline, Forge guns are more of a threat to tanks than a Railgun, Re's still hit like a brick... Need I go on? yes I would like to see proof from my experience in matches today AV does not seem to be as viable as it used to be, now don't get me wrong it still works wonders against bad tankers but against anyone that has skilled into it even a little they don't seem to do much anymore but I'm fine with being proved wrong just as long as I get some actual proof A statement cannot be proven based off of personal experiences... As it has no validity behind it. The idea of being able to Solo an HAV shouldn't be realistic based off the risk vs reward portion of the game. I'm a rather experienced PC tanker so I'd like to think of myself as being at least decent at it given that a large majority of my SP is into vehicles (Every turret is at least level 5, and a proficient ADS pilot) fair enough so what do you think should be enough to take you out if you were in your most expensive tank and what do you think it should take to take out a std one?

Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:30:00 - [11] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: this was my problem in matches I came up behind an unsuspecting tank placed 4 Proxies threw 2 packed nades and as the tank rolled back over the proxies which took its EHP down to about half, he only had about 2k armor left I believe he had somewhere between 3-4k shields I then fired two vollys of a std swarm launcher thinking he would go down since I had stacked 3 bpo damage mods (the event one) well much to my dismay the tank simply rolled away as it regained full armor and shields in under 3 seconds Here's where I call BS. Regen does not happen for like three seconds, and you said it regened in three seconds... Taking its HP down to half, don't believe so, unless a hardener was used. However, there are other things to be considered: If it had 3000-4000 shields, it had to be at least advanced because that's only fittable on an advanced or pro tank. You were using a SL on a shield tank, there is no more excuse for not using a PLC anymore. Also, again, was there a hardener in play? yes there was a hardener in play but not until all the damage was done and as far as regen goes with the right modules you can regen all in under 3 seconds, now I did not use the SL until the shields were down, like I said I used proxies and AV nades first which I thought would have taken the tank out all on their own
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:36:00 - [12] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: If you would kindly go back and reread what was actually written that'd be greatly appreciated, or perhaps I should clarify again I am asking for help from the community to gather opinions and actual data to help me see where things are standing currently in dust as far as tanks an AV is concerned I see no specifics... Only anecdotal evidence. Also, there were a lot of questions not very related to AV balance, a lot of "tankers were coordinated, my team wasn't, so is this balanced?" Type of thing... I see you trying to change the argument on me but I will tell you this I stated my opinions and experiences not hard evidence or facts so think what you may, but I do think I should be able to take out a tank on my own after using all the resources available to me now this may be the wrong way of thinking but as a solo player this is how I must play to actually profit as I have in the past yes there are questions in there that I need the answer to which is why I made a thread now I am glad that you are a part of it but You don seem to bring anything other then trying to make me seem like a scrub which if it would please you that much you may proceed to think of me as such but nonetheless what I have stated is still valid and I would still like help to answer those questions for myself and those of the community that have similar questions
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:41:00 - [13] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: 1e 3peat wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: the problem was mostly teamwork as in they had it and we did not ^ it would appear so but to think even that 3 people could not take 1 tank out I thought the issue was 4 tanks in close formation, not 1? As someone with a proto PLC, proto FG, and ADV swarm skills I have a hard time believing that 3 guys didn't kill one twerp, unless starter fits is literally all you had. the tanks were spread out across the map there was one always stationed at the default spawn of either side of the map and the other two were stationed at the objective and in between the two default spawns there were three guys at the spawn I was at I had mostly std gear and the other two were adv and std I dont know what the tank was but it had about 4k Ehp I think it was a Gladius
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:48:00 - [14] - Quote xavier zor wrote: this escalated quickly... Indeed it did and I might add that I like how everyone jumps on the chance to disprove and or troll anyone that tries to have a serious discussion so as I see things the Tankers are very touchy about their vehicles and don't want to die to std gear It seems that the mindset of "I'm proto so I shouldn't die to anything other then proto" is prevalent It also seems that many are reluctant to help even when stated multiple times I made a similar Thread about nano hives and the problem was resolved, my issue was that nano-hives were not worth the price tag but the devs fixed that by allowing more hives carried which was a perfect solution for me now as far as tanks and AV go I'm not looking for a hard nerf on anything It just seems to me like tanks are back to being the way they were before they got nerfed in the first place I'd just like to see where everyone stands on this and it seems the community is on the side of the tanks thus far which is completely fine
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:52:00 - [15] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: 1 swarmer that costs maybe 200k shouldn't solo a 1.6m tank I know some of you don't understand that concept but that's fine.. If we go by costs then it should take 8 guys of 200k suits to kill one 1.6m tank so are you to say that if you are using a proto dropsuit fitting that costs about 300k that a 40k suit shouldn't be able to kill you or do you think tanks should have their own rules? as I see it people are using price to dictate whether or not an individual has the capacity to take on and take out a target
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 43	Posted - 2015.03.16 00:57:00 - [16] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: A Gladius does not have substantial passive reps like a maddie, has to wait a significant time for the shields to start kicking in, and has terrible cooldown times for shield boosters and hardeners. I just find it bizarre that you could't drive him away with sustained fire from three people, standard or not. How does that even happen? Did you take turns soloing it? like I said the points were being camped the tanks were the main problem but as soon as the tank takes any fire its buddies come along to help meaning we only had small windows to even attack it and as soon as we pop out of cover we have 2-3 seconds left to live, this is not the issue tho that was just an example my main issue was not being able to take out any of the tanks there were other issues but as this is mainly about AV and tanks I do not wish to diverge from the topic until I get the answers that I seek which some of them have already been answered
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 45	Posted - 2015.03.16 01:05:00 - [17] - Quote I would like to thank you fellow mercs for your input and I look forward to blowing you up on the battlefield
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 45	Posted - 2015.03.16 01:18:00 - [18] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: 1 swarmer that costs maybe 200k shouldn't solo a 1.6m tank I know some of you don't understand that concept but that's fine.. If we go by costs then it should take 8 guys of 200k suits to kill one 1.6m tank so are you to say that if you are using a proto dropsuit fitting that costs about 300k that a 40k suit shouldn't be able to kill you or do you think tanks should have their own rules? as I see it people are using price to dictate whether or not an individual has the capacity to take on and take out a target Okay then my question for you is what do tanks mean to you? Free WP? Waste of isk? Sitting ontop a building with an auto lock weapon doesn't take skill so why compare it to dropsuits? It's not like the 40k dropsuit has an auto lock gun that will follow you around buildings. This is my issue 90% of av takes no skill whatsoever.. You know why the forge isn't the go to? Cuz it doesn't auto lock your enemy. Also all tanks received an hp nerf btw. And before you say anything I do not tank anymore I stopped in Chrome. I'm not saying they should be OP but they sure as hell shouldn't be easy to kill, atleast tanks have to aim to hit their target. tanks to me are tanks they have hefty amounts of HP but they are not godmode and should go down as any tank should when using the proper weaponry against them I myself have skilled into all the vehicles just to test them out now im by far not the best at any of these roles but I think that there should be a fair balance between the two if an ADS can be taken out by a lone AV merc and the ADS costs more then a tank of the same tire then the argument of "my tank costs more then your AV" is totally invalid at least that's how I see it and if I can take on proto players in std gear then why shouldn't I be able to do the same against tanks and other vehicles, now if tanks are working as intended that's completely fine But if AV isnt working against the main thing they are supposed to be good against then there is a problem, now people have been trying to discredit me for using std gear or for using the SL but I might add that I have skilled into all weapons and I do use the plc and fg when I see fit I don't have a bias towards the SL I use the PLC just as much and I used to use the FG far more back when It had splash damage so that I wouldn't have to worry about getting ganked as much I still use it fairly often and dont get me wrong I'm not trying to say that If I use only one of these I should be able to kill any tank but if I use all the proper av equipment and the tank is still full hp then then I find that to be an issue but as I have stated multiple times this is only my opinion
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 45	Posted - 2015.03.16 01:22:00 - [19] - Quote True Adamance wrote: If my in put means anything I view the situation as something that played out in the following manner..... Your enemy was in a situation where they were more cohesive and using communication to have an advantage as well as maintaining a high level vehicle superiority [the 4 tanks you mentioned]. You were specifically targeting a superior tier vehicle using a comparatively inferior tier of AV equipment alone. In this scenario I'd suggest that something on your end did not quite go according to plan and that your follow up on its depleted shields was less than adequate to deal with the kind of HAV that you were attacking. I'm going to attribute this more of less down to bad luck. I would agree completely, but I do see an issue where one team is backed into a corner and can no longer function appropriately that being said you are correct about all of this which is the whole reason why I made this thread, the issue of matchmaking is there to some extant as things stand my primary goal against tanks will probably be 1 of two options either take them on with my own tanks or use an ASD to do the dirty work from above
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 45	Posted - 2015.03.16 01:34:00 - [20] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Dropships have the flight ceiling, tanks get the bad terrain I use drop ships more then I do tanks so I will say that comparing the two drop ships are far easier to counter mainly because of the skill it takes to just fly them then If you use an ADS it not only skill but price as well it takes skill to fly it takes skill to shoot things and It takes a good amount of isk to be able to afford it tanks are far easier to use in my opinion and the whole swarm launchers are easy mode mindset is kinda silly swarms are far more of a threat to dropships then they are to tanks as all a tank has to do is go around a curve and the terrain will block any damage it doesn't take too much skill to point and click the skill comes in where you position and what tactics you use

Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 45	Posted - 2015.03.16 01:39:00 - [21] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Sicerly Yaw wrote: True Adamance wrote: If my in put means anything I view the situation as something that played out in the following manner..... Your enemy was in a situation where they were more cohesive and using communication to have an advantage as well as maintaining a high level vehicle superiority [the 4 tanks you mentioned]. You were specifically targeting a superior tier vehicle using a comparatively inferior tier of AV equipment alone. In this scenario I'd suggest that something on your end did not quite go according to plan and that your follow up on its depleted shields was less than adequate to deal with the kind of HAV that you were attacking. I'm going to attribute this more of less down to bad luck. I would agree completely, but I do see an issue where one team is backed into a corner and can no longer function appropriately that being said you are correct about all of this which is the whole reason why I made this thread, the issue of matchmaking is there to some extant as things stand my primary goal against tanks will probably be 1 of two options either take them on with my own tanks or use an ASD to do the dirty work from above Fact of the matter is if you cannot make a viable move your opponent has out played you. If you were encountering multiple Prototype HAV I'd suggest to you that it should take more than a single guy with basic AV to drop one simply for the sheer ISK and now SP cost of ensuring you have all the nifty stuff. As I said before it could just have been bad luck. I can certainly say that I don't think Tanks are over powered though they might be trending towards the upper echelons of content this build. I'll be skilling into shield HAV this evening and working with them for a couple of days to put together some feed back and a small beginners tank guide. this is more along the lines of what I was looking for when I made this thread I would like to see some feedback from mutiple players and their experiences and as far as isk and wp rewards I could care less about that stuff I want to make lots of isk and lots of wp I either go logi and place links, reps and revive or I use my cal scout suit and bunnyhop my way to victory I would much rather fight against mercs then vehicles I only do it because I try to counter whatever play style the other team has and its fun to blow things up
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 45	Posted - 2015.03.16 01:41:00 - [22] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: An eye for an eye makes the world blind. that'd be two eyes for two eyes, unless you are already missing one in that case sorry friend but in the world of the blind the one eyed man is king
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 46	Posted - 2015.03.16 02:19:00 - [23] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Sadly you have to engage vehicle users as they are just as important a facet of gameplay as infantry combat. I do think its a shame that infantry whims and demands have taken precedence over those of vehicle pilots. It's led to a lot of mucking around until now. Thankfully CCP Rattati is looking into them and hopefully going to be able with the correct feed back improve upon the current mechanics. I have full faith that Rattati will and the other devs will make this game ever better I love what they have done so far and I hope to see even more content
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 48	Posted - 2015.03.16 16:32:00 - [24] - Quote Shamarskii Simon wrote: what puzzles me is the fact a vehicle can't kill another vehicle as effectively and easily as an AV player. ADS/AV vs ADS/Anti-ADS. Who wins? Who's quicker and more effective? HAV/AV vs HAV/HAV. Who wins? Who's quicker and more effective? That's why AV is fine. Beyond fine. In Armored Core terms it's Super Fine. The most balanced AV weapon is the Plasma Cannon. Calculating that parabola, doing some third dimensional math, reading your target, Ensuring that round will hit. It takes long to solo a vehicle, but with some coordination the plasma cannon is a dangerous thing to have. ^ this is what AV should be. Dangerous alone if you stay too long, devastating when coordinated. Not this "I'm not a man, IM A GOD!-í! Fear me!" run out of cover and fire all weapons for a free +75 mentality. Especially swarmers. I enjoy watching them wonder why I'm not flying away ASAP. They feel the fear we vehicles fear whenever I'm all hard in my python. Finally got a hard counter for them! Thankfully a forge gunner has to position his/herself first and aim. Nothing against you guys. Easy fix, put up TTK on everything other than vehicle vs vehicle (which is the last "true skill" thing that remains) none of this -- 2 second everything goes BOOM-- kinda things. Please. this post is not an attack, it is simply my opinion based on my observations and/or the observations of others. Sure exclamations are used all over, and my words sound harsh; but, just know I'm only reflecting how the vehicle users mostly feel for being a ragdoll, and having their minority rights scrapped. I like your mentality but I do enjoy the game as it is now and whatever changes Ill still be really into it, I'm just trying to adapt to the current changes and see what I should skill into next to be able to take on these challenges