DUST Search - Should n00bs easily kill vets?

CeeJ Mantis wrote:

I have been thinking about this game, and one thing about it is that it is possible to have insanely high K/D for a shooter. No other shooters I've seen allow someone to have a lifetime K/D in the double digits because they have better matchmaking, and tend to put players on more equal footing (similar HP/damage/access to nice things). Also, seeing the forum QQ about how everyone hates swarms because they are "too easy" got me thinking.

My impression based on forum QQ, and the hatemail I get from angry people in proto, is that people feel that when someone kills them with "lesser" tactics/SP investment/isk, then it is "unfair". That when you invest into these things, people shouldn't kill you without similar investment. People complain that they loose proto to cheap tricks, or that their big vehicle should require similar isk investment to take down. As the current player base and matchmaking can't only put vets with vets, and noobs with noobs, they will face each other regularly. So I ask you all this:

1. Should a new player who has played for a week (who has decent aim and doesn't make poor decisions) be able to EASILY kill a vet who has substantially more SP/gametime?

2. If yes, how much of an advantage in general combat should the vet have assuming equal shooting skill (but not equal equipment)?

3. Is the gap between new players and veteran players too high to make the game fun and fair for everyone?

Discuss.

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CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 155	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:20:00 - [1] - Quote I have been thinking about this game, and one thing about it is that it is possible to have insanely high K/D for a shooter. No other shooters I've seen allow someone to have a lifetime K/D in the double digits because they have better matchmaking, and tend to put players on more equal footing (similar HP/damage/access to nice things). Also, seeing the forum QQ about how everyone hates swarms because they are "too easy" got me thinking. My impression based on forum QQ, and the hatemail I get from angry people in proto, is that people feel that when someone kills them with "lesser" tactics/SP investment/isk, then it is "unfair". That when you invest into these things, people shouldn't kill you without similar investment. People complain that they loose proto to cheap tricks, or that their big vehicle should require similar isk investment to take down. As the current player base and matchmaking can't only put vets with vets, and noobs with noobs, they will face each other regularly. So I ask you all this: 1. Should a new player who has played for a week (who has decent aim and doesn't make poor decisions) be able to EASILY kill a vet who has substantially more SP/gametime? 2. If yes, how much of an advantage in general combat should the vet have assuming equal shooting skill (but not equal equipment? 3. It the gap between new players and veteran players too high to make the game fun and fair for everyone? Discuss. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
DAAAA BEAST Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 923	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:24:00 - [2] - Quote o7 Fellow PLC'er Never got a real chance to say hi. I've seen you in battle plenty of times. I don't really give a s* about the post. Hope to see you in battle. - Amarr scout PLC / Flaylock My New YT Channel ! Join Gû¦Corrosive Synergy Gùä**
Proto Annihilator 16 Vandals 644	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:28:00 - [3] - Quote It wasn't that bad when TTK was low. MAR could perforate proto. Forum warriors however have terrible gungame and constantly beg for high TTK. They dont realize the skill gap it created. Not SP, skill. A proto stomper can live thru surprise attacks now. Forum warriors still get destroyed but feel like they put up a fight. Newbs get slaughtered without a chance. CCP remains clueless. World of hurt
Stormblade Green KnightKiller's inc. 42	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:29:00 - [4] - Quote Two words. No. One might say... I'm very skilled... yet I'm his apprentice... So what does that say about my mentor?
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 2615	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:30:00 - [5] - Quote TTK sucks as is... I hate it. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1373	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:41:00 - [6] - Quote Yes. AA works fine. Please support fair play!
xxwhitedevilxx M Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 2948	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:43:00 - [7] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: I have been thinking about this game, and one thing about it is that it is possible to have insanely high K/D for a shooter. No other shooters I've seen allow someone to have a lifetime K/D in the double digits because they have better matchmaking, and tend to put players on more equal footing (similar HP/damage/access to nice things). Also, seeing the forum QQ about how everyone hates swarms because they are "too easy" got me thinking. My impression based on forum QQ, and the hatemail I get from angry people in proto, is that people feel that when someone kills them with "lesser" tactics/SP investment/isk, then it is "unfair". That when you invest into these things, people shouldn't kill you without similar investment. People complain that they loose proto to cheap tricks, or that their big vehicle should require similar isk investment to take down. As the current player base and matchmaking can't only put vets with vets, and noobs with noobs, they will face each other regularly. So I ask you all this: 1. Should a new player who has played for a week (who has decent aim and doesn't make poor decisions) be able to EASILY kill a vet who has substantially more SP/gametime? 2. If yes, how much of an advantage in general combat should the vet have assuming equal shooting skill (but not equal equipment? 3. It the gap between new players and veteran players too high to make the game fun and fair for everyone? Discuss. 1. Yes. 2. There should be some sort of advantage imo, but it should be minimal. People should get their PROs when they really want even a little edge over their enemies. Just for PCs for example, where you want to win at all costs. 3. Absolutely. I brought countless players here on Dust, but almost all of them left because their personal/team skills was not rewarded at all. If someone shoot you from behind you shouldn't be able to win the fight by simply looking at him and shooting back. Guinea Dust Bunnies are watching you, CCP Rouge.
Squagga The State Protectorate 369	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:46:00 - [8] - Quote Well, first and foremost. CCP will never be able to "balance" this game. Because everyody is gonna go on the forums and complain, it's not their gun game that's the problem. It's not their favorite gun that's the problem. It's everybody else, fix everybody else and then they can be good at this game. This will go on for the end of time. If everything were "equal" then there wouldn't be some of the best parts of this game. No skilling into certain areas. No way to get better gear. What would be the point? The real problem I see, is PC, sorta. The best players get invited, or however, into the best corps. They play in PC and get lots and lots of ISK. With so much ISK they can run proto in pubs. The have nots, can't afford to run proto all the time. It's just not financially responsible.To solve this? Criers are gonna cry, and it takes away from the things that we actually need to be getting the devs to work on. Reloading, the silent killer.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17540	Posted - 2015.03.10 02:59:00 - [9] - Quote Quiet Ceej or I'll take you to the Vadam Zone! "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3542	Posted - 2015.03.10 03:00:00 - [10] - Quote EDIT: nevermind "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire

VAHZZ Gallente Federation 805	Posted - 2015.03.10 03:05:00 - [11] - Quote HA!... HA HA! BAHAHAHAHAHA Ohhh man, this is hilarious. I only see a newberry killing a vet, is if the newberry is actually skilled. Have you seen a newberry? They have poo brain. Only maybe a few are actually good. But most of them have turds for brains and this is like their first ever shooter. *The supreme art of war, is to subdue the enemy without fighting*.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9796	Posted - 2015.03.10 03:10:00 - [12] - Quote I applaud this game. It is the only MMO type game I know of where a long time vet can still be easily be killed by a noob. My issue comes from scrubs killing me *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
BLOOD Ruler Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1231	Posted - 2015.03.10 03:16:00 - [13] - Quote If a newb can do that then he should not be registered as a notnewb but instead a professional. Yes it is fair, skill should decide not gear. No further comment. Feel The Burning Pain Of My Knives While Your Skull And Mind Is Wrecked By My Pistol. I am the Assassin.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 155	Posted - 2015.03.10 03:17:00 - [14] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I applaud this game. It is the only MMO type game I know of where a long time vet can still be easily be killed by a noob. My issue comes from scrubs killing me Here's another psudo-philosophical question: What makes someone a scrub? I am a believer that one should play how they want, but that if one looses because they chose to not use all of the tools at their disposal, then they chose to loose. I don't like doing many of the "cheap" tactics people often complain about because I don't find them fun, but I can't really blame a RE throwing SG scout for doing what works. Even if it is frustrating to deal with. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Jack 3enimble Pub Stars 662	Posted - 2015.03.10 03:17:00 - [15] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I applaud this game. It is the only MMO type game I know of where a long time vet can still be easily be killed by a noob. My issue comes from scrubs killing me Use your gypsy crystal ball dammit. That way you'll see it coming.. Dealing justice with a swift punch in the balls, now in battles near you! Lord of the Links
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 161	Posted - 2015.03.10 04:33:00 - [16] - Quote This is a problem with the high TTK, more than anything. BRB, looking for socks Asslut Rifles OP, anal now I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9797	Posted - 2015.03.10 04:46:00 - [17] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: I applaud this game. It is the only MMO type game I know of where a long time vet can still be easily be killed by a noob. My issue comes from scrubs killing me Here's another psudo-philosophical question: What makes someone a scrub? I am a believer that one should play how they want, but that if one looses because they chose to not use all of the tools at their disposal, then they chose to loose. I don't like doing many of the "cheap" tactics people often complain about because I don't find them fun, but I can't really blame a RE throwing SG scout for doing what works. Even if it is frustrating to deal with. FoTM chaser = scrub *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 5787	Posted - 2015.03.10 04:49:00 - [18] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: CeeJ Mantis wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: I applaud this game. It is the only MMO type game I know of where a long time vet can still be easily be killed by a noob. My issue comes from scrubs killing me Here's another psudo-philosophical question: What makes someone a scrub? I am a believer that one should play how they want, but that if one looses because they chose to not use all of the tools at their disposal, then they chose to loose. I don't like doing many of the "cheap" tactics people often complain about because I don't find them fun, but I can't really blame a RE throwing SG scout for doing what works. Even if it is frustrating to deal with. FoTM chaser = scrub Guess I'm a scrub, but hey I like not dying to much #Mk.0Assaultisactuallyascout (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
xavier zor 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 768	Posted - 2015.03.10 04:54:00 - [19] - Quote Proto Annihilator wrote: It wasn't that bad when TTK was low. MAR could perforate proto. Forum warriors however have terrible gungame and constantly beg for high TTK. They dont realize the skill gap it created. Not SP, skill. A proto stomper can live thru surprise attacks now. Forum warriors still get destroyed but feel like they put up a fight. Newbs get slaughtered without a chance. CCP remains clueless. Proto-stompers who don't have a ridiculous amount of ISK are the real high-end players. Just think about what they would have to do each game to go ISK positive retired stabbed musturd, duna, radar, tibs replying
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 477	Posted - 2015.03.10 05:12:00 - [20] - Quote Should be specialization versus versatility. As long as there is tier=power it will never work. Death is a serious business. So is running a shoddy, half-baked game company.

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 909	Posted - 2015.03.10 05:29:00 - [21] - Quote No, but not for the "privilaged vet" argument. Everybody invests time and SP into this game to make thier equipment better. SP is a huge factor in this, followled closely by experience and team work. Thats something new players have got to earn. I created an Amarr alt with her own passive SP gain, a little over a month, she has her Adv Armor plates and Reps, ADV assault, PG/ CPU level 3, an ADV scrambler rifle and an ADV Amarr suit. 3 mill SP and she stands decent chance vs a good 70% of Dust players. That being said, she isn't as versatile as Tesfa, who can pull out any suit, weapon type, equipment type, grenade type or vehicle. Nor does she have any proto yet. Despite this she is still thrown up against some very high ranking players. For noobs the struggle is real, because while i can go have fun with my main character and let her progress on the side, i cant imagine grinding out a month with just basic skills in the current matchmaking climate. Instead of should new players easily kill vets, the question should rather be should new players be paired up against vets? The answer is also a resounding no. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 1298	Posted - 2015.03.10 05:31:00 - [22] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I applaud this game. It is the only MMO type game I know of where a long time vet can still be easily be killed by a noob. My issue comes from scrubs killing me Any other mmo style game pvp is either open world gank, or safe zone player initiated pvp. Arena modes in MMos for the most part have skill cap or gear cap restrictions that balance the fights more around skilled rotation and smart thinking more so than overpowering by sheer stats. Dust would benefit from this greatly, but the playerbase is too small to support the function. Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
Proto Annihilator 16 Vandals 650	Posted - 2015.03.10 10:13:00 - [23] - Quote xavier zor wrote: Proto Annihilator wrote: It wasn't that bad when TTK was low. MAR could perforate proto. Forum warriors however have terrible gungame and constantly beg for high TTK. They dont realize the skill gap it created. Not SP, skill. A proto stomper can live thru surprise attacks now. Forum warriors still get destroyed but feel like they put up a fight. Newbs get slaughtered without a chance. CCP remains clueless. Proto-stompers who don't have a ridiculous amount of ISK are the real high-end players. Just think about what they would have to do each game to go ISK positive Use affordable gear. World of hurt
Edgar Reinhart Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 36	Posted - 2015.03.10 11:22:00 - [24] - Quote Proto Annihilator wrote: xavier zor wrote: Proto Annihilator wrote: It wasn't that bad when TTK was low. MAR could perforate proto. Forum warriors however have terrible gungame and constantly beg for high TTK. They dont realize the skill gap it created. Not SP, skill. A proto stomper can live thru surprise attacks now. Forum warriors still get destroyed but feel like they put up a fight. Newbs get slaughtered without a chance. CCP remains clueless. Proto-stompers who don't have a ridiculous amount of ISK are the real high-end players. Just think about what they would have to do each game to go ISK positive Use affordable gear. Exactly, and this is the main issue really. I really like the fact that a battle in Dust has such a variety of, not just dropsuits, but tiers of dropsuits too. Is it annoying when I manage to surprise a proto assault only to run out of ammo before they turn around and one shot me? yes, yes it really is. Does it lead to swearing and sometimes giving up for the rest of the match? Yes, yes it does. It's part of the game though. Win the physical and psychological battle with better gear. (I guess I've only ever run the starter suits so I can not truly appreciate the power of the darkside) The problem is the economy. There is too much ISK in too few hands these days meaning that for some there is absolutely no need to not nor downside to running proto all the time. They know they can afford it and they know that most other people can't so there is minimal risk to them running a full proto suit with full proto modules and weapons. The suits/guns aren't particualrly OP across the tiers I don't think but it's the stacking of modules and SP gains that make people virtually unkillable. I think this is kind of OK though. It is what gives Dust it's USP and character. Ideally, however, Dust would be a self levelling playing field, no one should be able to afford to run proto all the time. Yes people will have earned the SP 'right' to use the best gear but you gotta pay the bills too. Therefore everyone would be seesawing back and forth between proto and non proto good week to bad week with it being possible to lose everything very quickly if you have a bad week, bad run in PC etc etc. Unfortunately a lot of vets can die over and over in proto with no consequences whereas for many of the people chasing them losing one good adv fit wipes them out for the week. The vets in proto therefore don't die over and over and can thefore stomp and run more and more proto in a horrible cycle. Especially when the big proto running corps/players refuse to actually fight each other in Public matches and leave the battle when it happens. I know that they're talking about bringing in meta based matchmaking, and as it currently stands the game probably needs it, but I do think it's a bit of a shame really as it detracts from the overall setting of the game and just further compartmentalises and splits an already, ummmm compact, playerbase. This means there isn't a constant supply of new players coming through. If that was the case then there would always be enough random red dots in a match for new players to be competitive against each other whilst being overseen by the comparatively rarer big stompy scary vets. This is currently skewed the wrong way too. Wow sorry essay. Slow day at the office and all that. Ummm T/L D/R I think ISK imbalance and lack of new players is a bigger problem than proto per se. 1/2. A noob (such as myself) should be able to beat an SP rich vet in the same dropsuit as him through better tactics/surprise etc. A high SP vet in a well fitted standard suit should be able to take on a noob in an averagely fitted proto suit. A noob in a starter suit would be crazy to take on a vet in a proto suit........ but the proto suit shouldn't be able to take on a whole noob squad. 3. Difficult as, despite what I said above, the answer is probably yes. It doesn't have to be 'fair' for everybody but fun definitely. I think I enjoy this game because I don't try and slay all the time, charging into objectives etc.... but I've had to learn not to do that so much as it's counter intuitive to an FPS game. But the matches where you find yourself in a meat grinder stomp where it doesn't matter where you are or what you do the same 3 or 4 players instagib you....... Hmmmmm. I've also learned to scan the team rosters at the start of the match and if certain combinations of players are on the opposite team/ your team then you already know how things are going to go, which is a shame........ It does make the matches where it doesn't play out like that all the more satisfying though. Hmmmm two part essay there. Sorry again thanks for reading, if you did and I'll be there flinging my nooby self infront of the proliferation of GEK-38s, SB-39s, BK-42s and MH-82s for the evening.
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 1298	Posted - 2015.03.10 11:47:00 - [25] - Quote There should be optional meta level matchmaking and open pvp, not like pc or fw because of the ungodly queues, but an instant battle setting for null sec...basically all out anything goes fights. Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3131	Posted - 2015.03.10 13:53:00 - [26] - Quote Imagine being matched up based on your lethality. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 1034	Posted - 2015.03.10 14:17:00 - [27] - Quote I would be a fan of the idea of lowering the skill gaps by making all suits have same number of slots but changing the pg/CPU for each level. This way at standard you can only fit standard modules and at adv only adv and so on. SP investment still means something but not as much. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Michael Epic Horizons' Edge 599	Posted - 2015.03.10 14:20:00 - [28] - Quote Honestly? When I see a lower rank or newer rank (especially recruit) has killed me with basic or advanced gear, I cheer them on! If I make a mistake or they just one up me, that's called "gameplay" and that's A-OK with me! Michael Epic's "EPIC" Proposal to his girlfriend :D
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2542	Posted - 2015.03.10 15:26:00 - [29] - Quote CeeJ Mantis wrote: I have been thinking about this game, and one thing about it is that it is possible to have insanely high K/D for a shooter. No other shooters I've seen allow someone to have a lifetime K/D in the double digits because they have better matchmaking, and tend to put players on more equal footing (similar HP/damage/access to nice things). Also, seeing the forum QQ about how everyone hates swarms because they are "too easy" got me thinking. My impression based on forum QQ, and the hatemail I get from angry people in proto, is that people feel that when someone kills them with "lesser" tactics/SP investment/isk, then it is "unfair". That when you invest into these things, people shouldn't kill you without similar investment. People complain that they loose proto to cheap tricks, or that their big vehicle should require similar isk investment to take down. As the current player base and matchmaking can't only put vets with vets, and noobs with noobs, they will face each other regularly. So I ask you all this: 1. Should a new player who has played for a week (who has decent aim and doesn't make poor decisions) be able to EASILY kill a vet who has substantially more SP/gametime? 2. If yes, how much of an advantage in general combat should the vet have assuming equal shooting skill (but not equal equipment)? 3. Is the gap between new players and veteran players too high to make the game fun and fair for everyone? Discuss. Yes noobs should be able to kill vets. Vets on noob toons can kill vets, we've all proven that to ourselves at one point or another. But it should never be easy - tactics, placement, patience, exploiting opportunities should be the tools noobs are forced to use to kill vets. I have a different question: should a smart, good fpser new to DUST be able to kill a stupid, lazy vet? Can they now? PSN: RationalSpark
Proto Annihilator 16 Vandals 652	Posted - 2015.03.10 17:58:00 - [30] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Imagine being matched up based on your lethality. They don't have the intelligence level to understand. World of hurt



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