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Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
73
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Posted - 2015.03.06 18:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
Doing mostly public battles, I run standard suit and weapon almost 100% of the time. This gives noobs the chance to compete on the battle field, yields me tougher engagements and satisfying kills, knowing I play and contribute to the game's health.
Seeing so many protos stomping the sheat out of noobs and killing player retention this way made me wonder: GåÆ How can we put a stop to this w/o blocking mechanisms via suit/weapon meta? GåÆ How can we encourage short minded players out for quick satisfaction to make game-heathy decisions? GåÆ how can we achieve this w/o patronising?
The answer came easy: Make them want it. Via rewarding systems.
STEP 1: Each EOM screen displays your most used suit and weapon, so this information can be used to reward match performance.
GåÆ make Ambush, Domination and Skirmish matches pay out pretty better for mostly MLT, STD and ADV users than Protos:
MLT>STD>ADV>PRO
Why should the corporations issuing the contracts award the win only? Have them award the economically viable use of resources (suit, weapon) towards an end significantly more: after all one loss today is not a loss in the war between the corporations. Achieving the most with the least efford should be rewarded the most.
This way economically wise/thoughtful battle decisions will be encouraged, not mindlessly throwing all you have at thine enemy for a small win at the cost of newer players. In the end your contractors are to evaluate your performance.
STEP 2: In addition, encourage proto use in FW and PC: the latter will barely need one, but rewarding it nevertheless is good to strengthen the overall approach: GåÆ give FW and PC a significantly, SIGNIFICANTLY higher drop chance of hacking cards if your EOM screen lists you as having used proto gear most of the time.
This will give players incentive to strive for FW and PC as well as Proto use there. Those new players having acquired their APEX suits with AUR will have much better than MLT/STD/ADV hacking card drop chances as well, but never as good as real protos. After all they have fielded a photo suit, but a STD weapon. Weigh it 1/4 to 1/3 for APEX vs. 2/3 to 3/4 for real Protos.
Please discuss...
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Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
75
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Posted - 2015.03.06 19:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP, in addition to aforementioned method: If you want to step up the incentive once implemented, remove the hacking cards from daily missions gradually, but not completely.
Furthermore have NPC corporations pay less and less bonus to the mercenary perma-protoing the pubs. after all. the contracting corporations know them for risking and wasting their expenses. Treat this as a standing loss, that can be healed again over time. |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
76
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Posted - 2015.03.06 20:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Templar XIII wrote:CCP, in addition to aforementioned method: If you want to step up the incentive once implemented, remove the hacking cards from daily missions gradually, but not completely.
Furthermore have NPC corporations pay less and less bonus to the mercenary perma-protoing the pubs. after all. the contracting corporations know them for risking and wasting their expenses. Treat this as a standing loss, that can be healed again over time. What are you getting at here?
This is merely a theoretical escalation of my first thought. ISK efficiency not on a battle to battle basis only, but ISK efficiency over time (ISK eff. ratio) affecting the to be payed out bonus for coming public contracts.
"...after all, the contracting corporations know them..." This came off a bit too RP maybe? |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
76
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Posted - 2015.03.06 20:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote: I think ISK efficiency would be a good metric to add to the leaderboard, but I don't think it'll change much of anything in pubs. Most of the people that cause the tears have incredible ISK efficiency while wearing the most expensive stuff they can get their hands on.
I'd say the low payouts have been driving the behavior that has lead to so many lopsidded matches (people using cheap gear 24/7). Giving people another reason to be concerned about what they are spending will only drive a portion of the player base to be even more passive.
I think a lot of the veteran, PC corps would hardly entertain public matches if platoon/team deploy were available through raids and FW 24/7. You don't have to re-invent the wheel here, just provide content to entertain the veteran skilled players while also providing the casual and/or low SP players something to strive for at a later date.
I would agree with you, if and only IF an ISK efficiency ratio was the only metric here. My approach has two variables coming into play here:
[1] Overall ISK efficiency ratio: This counts into the bonus as a general with a factor of, say: Bonus x 0.5 (inefficient) GåÆ Bonus x 1.0 (efficient)
[2] Ad-hoc efficiency: This will be determine the payout in a single battle the most: EOM Favorites (Suit+Weapon) MLT GåÆ BONUS x 4.0 STD GåÆ BONUS x 3.0 ADV GåÆ BONUS x2.0 PRO GåÆ BONUS x1.0 |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
76
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Posted - 2015.03.06 20:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:
With the removal of passive ISK in PC there are no longer any payouts or bonuses being paid by corporations.
I think a lot can be done once other game modes are there for corporations to build for. A lot of the discussion about the future of PC is focused on activity within the corporation building resources to allow corporations to conduct PC operations. Hopefully players will be rewarded automatically by their corporations for successfully defending against raids or for fulfilling faction contracts, etc.
This is why my idea for PC (and in a weaker way, FW) was not to factor in the same bonus system as for public battles, but to incentive via hacking card drop rate based on 'Commitment' (the will to commit proto suits to the battle). |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
76
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Posted - 2015.03.06 20:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote: ... In my opinion the only way to turn it around in the short term would be to incentivize higher level gear in pubs to give the higher skilled players something more difficult to kill.
Basically turning their COD story mode from Beginner to Intermediate.
The idea behind my thread is to offer ways to help the player base grow, giving new players room to compete and thrive, NOT to kill them off completely by incentivizing even the last of us sane vets to go in all proto into pubs to get that little extra 'incentive' (rare BPOs or whatever you had in mind).
My approach shifts the balance of proto to FW and PC, but gives noobs some free space, a good buck, some strongboxes and a good time with vets in pubs (for reasons that make kinda sense even in a real world scenario), plus incentive to later go FW/PC all proto to get more keys for said strongboxes. You see, both Vets and newbros profit from it, vets get their hard fights in FW & PC with other proto vets and greenhorns that feel ready for it .
Furthermore, implementing both my bonus factors (ISK eff ration and Ad-hoc efficiency) might divert less of CCPs resourcesand have an overall positive long time effect on player base growth and retention and is not in need to be scaled up time and time again ("Issue new BPOs for the pub-protostompin' vets quick before they get bored again !!").
Your idea is nice, and I'd like to get more content for me as well (like: "Naoh!"), but my first concern here is not "Vets first! Newbs, HTFU even more!". I know we need more endgame, but we need new players even more, to give CCP reason to fund more money into Shanghai doing endgame and other content development. |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
78
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Posted - 2015.03.06 21:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:
Okay, now I'm buying in. But there has to be a point where this kicks in. You can't have a dude that goes 4-0 with 200 WP getting 4x his normal payout because he sniped in a starter suit.
Brilliant objection, you are absolutely right, this is where CCP comes into play to sort out the details. I mean, its their job after all, isn't it? |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
90
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Posted - 2015.03.14 01:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bump, keeping it on the radar... |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2015.03.16 23:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Edited and added some numbers at the bottom for exemplification. |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2015.03.17 00:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:These are all awful ideas. Don't reward the shitberries not capable of bringing a well fit advanced suit that will actually be contributing to the win.
If anything, running better gear should net better payouts.
tl;dr; you're a shitler if you don't bring the best gear you can afford to at least profit with.
Don't worry, dude, I did not expect YOU to understand this....
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Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2015.03.17 01:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Q: "So what's stopping me from getting in a MLT suit and ROFL stomping in a Proto Tank?"
A: My proposal using EOM Favorites information was merely one approach to determine mostly used gear in a match; determining and including tank use into the calculation should be added. You are correct to emphasize this, thanks you.
Q: "Also: Bad ideas are bad. High Risk should always = High Reward"
A: This is correct only for singular events with finite outcome. As the story goes, this is a series of battles over different corporation's assets. Call it a marathon if you like. One battle won't win them an ultimate war, where high risk taking might have been adequate. A series of battles/investments knows a mix of high, medium and low risk commitments, where the latter two dominate to even out the overall risk. Going always maximum risk to achieve a set goal with a capped reward (assets worth only so and so much ISK to the contracting corporation) would have your contractors question your sanity at some point.
"New players use MLT" get tons of ISK. Die tons. " MLT GåÆ AER of 4.0 "die tons" GåÆ IER of 0.5 or lower, even 0.1 thinkable (low end is up for discussion) GåÆ not many WPs GåÆ my calculation would net them somewhere between 55,000 and 75,000 ISK for the match for IER between 0.1 and 0.5 and > 250 WP GåÆ as posted before, my calculation example is a very simplified one, and polishing necessary, but I guess you can see even in this example of yours: NOT "get tons of ISK"
"They don't die and make almost no ISK. LOL whatever. " GåÆ don't die and 4k WP would net them ~150,000 ISK, which is clearly more than "almost no ISK" GåÆ as stated before, the exact numbers need to be worked on, but they are meant to exemplify how discouraging from protostomping newbros could be achieved GåÆ you asking for newbros to not be newbros and commit best suits from the beginning neglects the realities we have to deal with: protostomping killing NPE and new player retention.
Q: "Summary: New players only run MLT or STD gear to make more money. Gets killed by vets in Proto gear who already don't care about ISK. Why hasn't this fixed proto stomping CCP?!?!?"
A1: My approach would have vets care about ISK again, because risking to go in the reds in every public match will make them. At least that's what I hope.
A2: A different approach such as not allowing suits beyond meta level X is thinkable as well. But at the cost of thereby clearly stating that common sense for the wellbeing and health of the game is not to be expected from the players, and therefore harsh patronizing measures have to be applied.
A3: the second part ('Step 2') targeted at additionally encouraging proto use in FW and PC to provide a channel and playing field, where your so called high risk reaps high reward and sets one goal for newbros to aspire to.
What I stated in the beginning had in mind the fact that not many of CCPs resources can be diverted to create loads of content like real PvE or PvEvP to draw loads of new players and please the vets. I'd love to see more content too, but I don't see that happen in the near future. So I look for ways to get if not instantly more new players then at least longer staying ones.
As much as I welcome your critique, for discussion is the goal of this post, I'd welcome even more if you came up with some constructive ideas of yours to better the gaming experience for all of us, because I do not believe my ideas to be the one solves all solution. So please add ideas, add better ones is even better. But facking add them.
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Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2015.03.17 02:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote: If everyone at least ran a well fit advanced suit instead of hurrdurr millitia 1337 isk efficiency the game would be much better. It would even band-aid fix specific roles that are garbage at lower tiers.
Funny, man, really funny. Where do you get the notion, that new players can run well fit advanced suits when having left the academy just moments before? Furthermore, medium (advanced) fits mean medium payout, so whats wrong with that? Winning one match with even militia fit with decent to good results, amounting in good payout (reaching set goal with minimum amount of resources) will be most probably achievable by exceptionally skilled (SP-wise or gun game) individuals.
THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Locking out end game content to people willing to play "end game" competitive game-modes is stupid.
You calling higher droprate of hacking cards an end game reserved to end game mode FW and PC? You kidding me man? When I think about end game content I tend to think in grander schemes than: hacking cards.
THUNDERGROOVE wrote: More people running overall better fits is good for the game.
Good for the game is when people stay in the game. This is what I aim at. I don't see that in your post. What I see in it is something like: I want to stomp faces and smash them, make people loose tons off ISK, drive them mad, have them rage quit and leave. To a certain extend this is indeed fun, but it is immature as much.
THUNDERGROOVE wrote: While retards running around in militia getting farmed isn't if YOU don't understand this, than I don't know what to tell you.
This is why I did not expect YOU to understand this, because you don't. This game is NOT about YOU stomping the faces of what you call retards, and padding KDR. It is about winning. Winning matches, small battles (Ambush), bigger ones that demand more tactical gameplay (Domination and Skirmish) and prepare you for the biggest and most important ones: FW and finally PC.
As someone in this thread stated before: Highest risk should reap highest reward: Winning a match is what counts the most ultimately, not your KDR. Risking the loss of a match for your contracting company by using the minimum amount of resources to achieve that goal is rightly being rewarded the most the way I described before. Using the biggest, most advanced, resources available and the most of it is the absolute opposite of risky. Using a flamethrower to light a candle on a windy day will surely get the job done...somehow. Using matches and succeeding is what we call economically viable and...sane. |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2015.03.17 02:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote: What we need isn't people downgrading because it would be more efficient than it already is, it's people to run better gear and be overall more effective in pubs.
Downgrading to be more economically efficient is good from a corporation's perspective, the corporations that contract your toon. What we need is more people, more people to stay in the game. Better gear for better game modes is what I tried to propose.
THUNDERGROOVE wrote: It's not that they're new, they're just bad or don't know enough about the game to be effective. It's been said time and time again, skill > gear.
What you fail to see here is the fact that newbros come into a game full of bittervets, with no time to adapt, hone their skills, grow experiences. Some players have gun game and skill from the beginning, others need to develop it and can develop it, if given time and room for it. If you have any better ideas so come and bring them forth, for this game needs them, I urge you. Mine are surely not the best possible, but surely better than offering...nothing? I did not post this thread to hear your...but...but...buts. I want your fracking ideas, the better the better, please believe me. So fracking bring them. |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
100
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Posted - 2015.03.17 05:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Templar XIII wrote: Big thing with lots of words
Wall of text with some sound numbers and good ideas.
And? Was it THAT hard to contribute in a constructive manner finally? Anyways, great post of yours. |
Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 05:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
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Templar XIII
Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic
100
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Posted - 2015.03.17 06:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:I don't see why you can't just fix the NPE without screwing over the already ****** end of match payouts. It's the far better option.
Forcing pubs to be a standard gear **** show won't make the gap between new players and vets any smaller.
I agree, it really is not the best idea I could think of. When you look at my end of match payouts please do not think them as final. They are just a rough...something (in lack of a better word, sorry). I just try to think of something that could have a positive longterm effect with little budget and development team.
Creating new and more content is what I personally desire the most. And I like to explore: these maps here are not for exploring, no open world here. But creating new content is costly in many and manpower, in development costs; more expensive if you consider the amount and cycle in which it would have to be created. New content brings bigger new player influx and keeps the vets busy despite all the old bugs still not addressed to today. My intention here is to provide ideas for steady, if slow player numbers growth. But I dream of more...definitely more.
*Pardon my english, Iam no native* |
Templar XIII
101
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Posted - 2015.03.17 16:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote: The Underlined is the primary reason why we will never have decent matchmaking.
Not enough players, not enough resources. Everything we can do will be a band aid, that really doesn't address the real problem.
Oh, and the bolded. IF I had such an answer, I would be working for CCP (Or somewhere else). I'll never understand why everyone thinks we should be doing CCP's job for them.
CCP should have someone sitting down, at a desk, right now. Doing exactly what we are doing in OUR SPARE TIME.
I love that the playerbase is so willing to try and fix this game. I hate the fact that CCP appears to have nowhere near as much drive.
Oh, oh, how I wish, I really wish I could disagree with you here, but I don't. |
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