DUST Search - An apology

Onesimus Tarsus wrote:

Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:

If KDR normalizes then every match would have a theoretical even distribution (on average) of the terrible players with 1 KDR and the great players with the 1KDR, after this match the great players will have an inflated KDR and the bad players a terrible KDR, but then after their next match the bad players against bad players will be thrust higher at a 1KDR again, and the good players against good players will once again be thrust into the 1KDR again.

If you graph this you'll have some wild rubber-band crap going on at the start of a player's lifespan, and as it progresses an almost unnoticeable "ripple" as the matches carry on, for the KDR/Match.

This is why KDR just doesn't work in the long term, due to it inherently approaching 1 as t approaches infinity, limits are bastards, are they not?

You need some kind of "teir" system, that bumps players up and down teirs, based on several performance factors.

if you want an example of a proper system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system This system allows the individual player's rating to normalize to their inherent skill level, unlike KDR match making which forces the player's KDR to normalize to 1 which places everyone in the same "bracket" in the long run. Elo would allow you to be matched only to nearby players, and rise/fall/normalize accordingly.

We are currently using such a system, I bet. It doesn't work.

As for the one bracket idea, I welcome it. However, we would all be on a stack. Let's just say we have only 100 players (probably true Big smile

). They can't all have the exact same KDR, and every time they face one another, two people move up and down that stack. Scotty then divides it by the top 32, next 32, and on with squads entering the stack as an average of the squad KDR, but everyone in the squad having their outcome KDR figured individually. KDR is used to shake out the stomp factor, and other, more nuanced skills (teamwork, strategy) float players to the top. They, in turn, churn the KDR butter, and the system fluxes on several axes.

So beautiful, I cry a little.

Hey Soldner, why are you such a cynic? Ever read the dust forums? You'll know why.

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Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 8163	Posted - 2015.03.06 13:48:00 - [1] - Quote General Discussion, With a great sorrow in my heart I come to you now, seeking contrition from my sins. I had the sheer audacity to skill into Gallente Dropsuit Command V, Assault Rifle Operation V, and Assault Rifle Proficiency V. I pressed on, while deliberately hiding my own guilty from myself, and created several fittings to utilize the skills I had just obtained. And here is where, in the common vernacular, I made a really "**** move" dear general discussion... I-I... I can hardly bring myself to say it... I... EARNED ENOUGH ISK TO RUN THESE FITTINGS WHENEVER I WANT! I'm sorry general discussion! I had no idea what I was doing! I thought that it was okay for me to use dropsuits that I was able to skill into! I was wrong! I know that now, please forgive me! The idea that I can just use my ISK however I damn well please, it's abhorrent! It's truly disgusting. I don't know if I will ever forgive myself for my crimes against humanity. I hope that in time you can, dear general discussion. /me right now in my living room. 4 out of 5 dentists agree that orange is not a sound.
Clips A'hoy Incorruptibles 239	Posted - 2015.03.06 13:50:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati will never forgive you. Check your priviledges, protostomper! I sometimes fill my bathtub with Jell-o, then I proceed to curl up and pretend I'm a fetus.
P14GU3 UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E 1278	Posted - 2015.03.06 13:52:00 - [3] - Quote /ecry 'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.
Fixitgd Incorruptibles 298	Posted - 2015.03.06 13:53:00 - [4] - Quote Do not hate the sinner, hate the sin. "Suck it!" - S.M.
Bremen van Equis BASTARDS OF BEDLAM 222	Posted - 2015.03.06 13:54:00 - [5] - Quote You've been meta-locked from General Discussions. War Room is that-a-way (and it's boring). Buckle up, boysGÇªthis ramp leads to space. -Axe Cop
Mejt0 Dead Man's Game RUST415 935	Posted - 2015.03.06 14:05:00 - [6] - Quote I feel sorry for you. What a waste of skill points :/. Loyal to State https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2629870#post2629870 - Mejto's trade/sale list
noob cavman Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 2156	Posted - 2015.03.06 14:11:00 - [7] - Quote Eh thats a sin? Looks at his officer rail gal assault. Welp im apparently going to hell. I want to be a caveman! Ccp: LEGION Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Full steam ahead into the enemies booty yarrr.
Rattati Follower Shaqib Bragian Order Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.03.06 14:12:00 - [8] - Quote "And when We said: Go into this township and eat freely of that which is therein, and enter the gate prostrate, and say: "Repentance." We will forgive you your sins and will increase (reward) for the right-doers." Rattati has spoken! Repent and sell all your gear to The Lady in the Water and you shall be free!
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 8165	Posted - 2015.03.06 14:13:00 - [9] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: I feel sorry for you. What a waste of skill points :/. I also have Amarr assault and scout V and ScR, SMG, and SL operation and proficiency V. SO MANY SINS! How could I have done this?! 4 out of 5 dentists agree that orange is not a sound.
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1611	Posted - 2015.03.06 14:44:00 - [10] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: General Discussion, With a great sorrow in my heart I come to you now, seeking contrition from my sins. I had the sheer audacity to skill into Gallente Dropsuit Command V, Assault Rifle Operation V, and Assault Rifle Proficiency V. I pressed on, while deliberately hiding my own guilty from myself, and created several fittings to utilize the skills I had just obtained. And here is where, in the common vernacular, I made a really "**** move" dear general discussion... I-I... I can hardly bring myself to say it... I... EARNED ENOUGH ISK TO RUN THESE FITTINGS WHENEVER I WANT! I'm sorry general discussion! I had no idea what I was doing! I thought that it was okay for me to use dropsuits that I was able to skill into! I was wrong! I know that now, please forgive me! The idea that I can just use my ISK however I damn well please, it's abhorrent! It's truly disgusting. I don't know if I will ever forgive myself for my crimes against humanity. I hope that in time you can, dear general discussion. /me right now in my living room. Raptor strike inbound... Hey Soldner, why are you such a cynic? Ever read the dust forums? You'll know why.

Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3108	Posted - 2015.03.06 15:02:00 - [11] - Quote KDR matchmaking would absolve this. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 22493	Posted - 2015.03.06 19:51:00 - [12] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: KDR matchmaking would absolve this. No, it wouldn't. You propose putting all the high KDR people in a group together, yes? So that they have fairer matches? Assuming we had a sufficient playercount for noticeable matchmaking, that would not work. What happens then is you end up with all the snipers and tankers in the high brackets, followed by vets, followed by newbies. Okay, good so far. What happens then? KDR normalises. When against players of equal skill and equipment, the average performance will be average. Even in the highest brackets the average KDR would be 1. What happens to KDR matchmaking then, do you think? Gallente Guide
Proto Annihilator 16 Vandals 568	Posted - 2015.03.06 19:59:00 - [13] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: KDR matchmaking would absolve this. No, it wouldn't. You propose putting all the high KDR people in a group together, yes? So that they have fairer matches? Assuming we had a sufficient playercount for noticeable matchmaking, that would not work. What happens then is you end up with all the snipers and tankers in the high brackets, followed by vets, followed by newbies. Okay, good so far. What happens then? KDR normalises. When against players of equal skill and equipment, the average performance will be average. Even in the highest brackets the average KDR would be 1. What happens to KDR matchmaking then, do you think? The sniper tanker arguement is s symptom of an under used brain. KDR matchmaking would have to apply to squads if it were to have any effect. Still with me? Solos would be matched accordingly. If my the squads on my team were matched against similar squads on the enemy team we could all fight people around our skill level. If kdr levels off and we are all about the same then you can assume it was poor matchmaking that earned our elite a high KDR in the first place.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3519	Posted - 2015.03.06 20:01:00 - [14] - Quote I thought it was in hiding since 7 8 9 EDIT WOOOOOOOOOOOOOW WRONG THREAD carry on folks nothing to see here "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 22496	Posted - 2015.03.06 20:05:00 - [15] - Quote Proto Annihilator wrote: The sniper tanker arguement is s symptom of an under used brain. It's amusing how quickly people resort to ad hominem when their argument is weak. Quote: KDR matchmaking would have to apply to squads if it were to have any effect. Still with me? Solos would be matched accordingly. If the squads on my team were matched against similar squads on the enemy team we could all fight people around our skill level. If kdr levels off and we are all about the same then you can assume it was poor matchmaking that earned our elite a high KDR in the first place. Let me highlight the part that you don't even seem to understand you typed. Quote: we could all fight people around our skill level. This means KDR normalises. You understand this, yes? When KDR normalises, your much vaunted KDR matchmaking becomes useless. Pure KDR matchmaking is inferior to a more balanced solution. Gallente Guide
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3520	Posted - 2015.03.06 20:14:00 - [16] - Quote If KDR normalizes then every match would have a theoretical even distribution (on average) of the terrible players with 1 KDR and the great players with the 1KDR, after this match the great players will have an inflated KDR and the bad players a terrible KDR, but then after their next match the bad players against bad players will be thrust higher at a 1KDR again, and the good players against good players will once again be thrust into the 1KDR again. If you graph this you'll have some wild rubber-band crap going on at the start of a player's lifespan, and as it progresses an almost unnoticeable "ripple" as the matches carry on, for the KDR/Match. This is why KDR just doesn't work in the long term, due to it inherently approaching infinity as t approaches infinity, limits are bastards, are they not? You need some kind of "teir" system, that bumps players up and down teirs, based on several performance factors. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Mejt0 Dead Man's Game RUST415 942	Posted - 2015.03.06 20:38:00 - [17] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Mejt0 wrote: I feel sorry for you. What a waste of skill points :/. I also have Amarr assault and scout V and ScR, SMG, and SL operation and proficiency V. SO MANY SINS! How could I have done this?! How many sins have i committed from having all rifles and some sidearms lvl 5 prof. 5? On my way of skilling every proto non gal suits in the game? Probably many. Hm.. people who already have +100m sp are probably having dinner with satan at the moment. Loyal to State https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2629870#post2629870 - Mejto's trade/sale list
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 8175	Posted - 2015.03.06 20:45:00 - [18] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: How many sins have i committed from having all rifles and some sidearms lvl 5 prof. 5? On my way of skilling every proto non gal suits in the game? Probably many. Hm.. people who already have +100m sp are probably having dinner with satan at the moment. /me makes sign of the cross. Those poor, poor souls. My sincerest wish is that they do not succumb to the temptations of protogear. May the Lord Rattati guide them to the comforting embrace of a standard dropsuit. 4 out of 5 dentists agree that orange is not a sound.
Proto Annihilator 16 Vandals 568	Posted - 2015.03.06 20:57:00 - [19] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Proto Annihilator wrote: The sniper tanker arguement is s symptom of an under used brain. It's amusing how quickly people resort to ad hominem when their argument is weak. Quote: KDR matchmaking would have to apply to squads if it were to have any effect. Still with me? Solos would be matched accordingly. If the squads on my team were matched against similar squads on the enemy team we could all fight people around our skill level. If kdr levels off and we are all about the same then you can assume it was poor matchmaking that earned our elite a high KDR in the first place. Let me highlight the part that you don't even seem to understand you typed. Quote: we could all fight people around our skill level. This means KDR normalises. You understand this, yes? When KDR normalises, your much vaunted KDR matchmaking becomes useless. Pure KDR matchmaking is inferior to a more balanced solution. Why would kdr normalization be a failure? I believe it would add a competitive edge that would actually mean something. Even if it got to where every one just fought whoever there would be spikes of good players who fight eackother. In that event pubs would be fun and profitable For everyone.
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 86	Posted - 2015.03.06 21:04:00 - [20] - Quote Purge it with FIRE! Show me where else you sinned? We have left over fire. The real sinners are those who have skilled into the denizens of the dark lord, the min ass-ault. Don't get me wrong, I have one too, and a proto CR. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).

Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 8181	Posted - 2015.03.06 21:12:00 - [21] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: The real sinners are those who have skilled into the denizens of the dark lord, the min ass-ault. Don't get me wrong, I have one too, and a proto CR. HEY! I'm a protoshitlord damned to the 9th layer of hell to be eaten eteranally by the Dark One... but I'm no MinAssault CR user. That's just... well it's wrong. /me shiver. 4 out of 5 dentists agree that orange is not a sound.
Assert Dominance Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 949	Posted - 2015.03.06 22:06:00 - [22] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: General Discussion, With a great sorrow in my heart I come to you now, seeking contrition from my sins. I had the sheer audacity to skill into Gallente Dropsuit Command V, Assault Rifle Operation V, and Assault Rifle Proficiency V. I pressed on, while deliberately hiding my own guilty from myself, and created several fittings to utilize the skills I had just obtained. And here is where, in the common vernacular, I made a really "**** move" dear general discussion... I-I... I can hardly bring myself to say it... I... EARNED ENOUGH ISK TO RUN THESE FITTINGS WHENEVER I WANT! I'm sorry general discussion! I had no idea what I was doing! I thought that it was okay for me to use dropsuits that I was able to skill into! I was wrong! I know that now, please forgive me! The idea that I can just use my ISK however I damn well please, it's abhorrent! It's truly disgusting. I don't know if I will ever forgive myself for my crimes against humanity. I hope that in time you can, dear general discussion. /me right now in my living room. how dare you play the game, earn isk, sp and utilize it. how dare you. 6 man proto squad errday.
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3109	Posted - 2015.03.06 22:22:00 - [23] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: KDR matchmaking would absolve this. No, it wouldn't. You propose putting all the high KDR people in a group together, yes? So that they have fairer matches? Assuming we had a sufficient playercount for noticeable matchmaking, that would not work. What happens then is you end up with all the snipers and tankers in the high brackets, followed by vets, followed by newbies. Okay, good so far. What happens then? KDR normalises. When against players of equal skill and equipment, the average performance will be average. Even in the highest brackets the average KDR would be 1. What happens to KDR matchmaking then, do you think? The same thing. Every time face an opponent, someone's KDR goes up, and the other goes down. Unlike the current system, where you go proto, and then only prey upon those weaker than yourself (which I'm sure attracts quite a few), you have no choice but to really harden up and stay competitive, or down the chute you go. But don't worry, you'll never again play anyone abysmally worse or unassailably better than yourself. Have fun! KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3109	Posted - 2015.03.06 23:15:00 - [24] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: If KDR normalizes then every match would have a theoretical even distribution (on average) of the terrible players with 1 KDR and the great players with the 1KDR, after this match the great players will have an inflated KDR and the bad players a terrible KDR, but then after their next match the bad players against bad players will be thrust higher at a 1KDR again, and the good players against good players will once again be thrust into the 1KDR again. If you graph this you'll have some wild rubber-band crap going on at the start of a player's lifespan, and as it progresses an almost unnoticeable "ripple" as the matches carry on, for the KDR/Match. This is why KDR just doesn't work in the long term, due to it inherently approaching 1 as t approaches infinity, limits are bastards, are they not? You need some kind of "teir" system, that bumps players up and down teirs, based on several performance factors. if you want an example of a proper system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system This system allows the individual player's rating to normalize to their inherent skill level, unlike KDR match making which forces the player's KDR to normalize to 1 which places everyone in the same "bracket" in the long run. Elo would allow you to be matched only to nearby players, and rise/fall/normalize accordingly. We are currently using such a system, I bet. It doesn't work. As for the one bracket idea, I welcome it. However, we would all be on a stack. Let's just say we have only 100 players (probably true ). They can't all have the exact same KDR, and every time they face one another, two people move up and down that stack. Scotty then divides it by the top 32, next 32, and on with squads entering the stack as an average of the squad KDR, but everyone in the squad having their outcome KDR figured individually. KDR is used to shake out the stomp factor, and other, more nuanced skills (teamwork, strategy) float players to the top. They, in turn, churn the KDR butter, and the system fluxes on several axes. So beautiful, I cry a little. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 8185	Posted - 2015.03.06 23:41:00 - [25] - Quote Hey nerds, none of your proposed systrms work if we have microscopic pool of players to create matches with. If we ever have a healthy playerbase feel free to jack up my threads unyil then quit interrupting me cutting myself for Jesus. Geez. Hethens. 4 out of 5 dentists agree that orange is not a sound.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1362	Posted - 2015.03.06 23:54:00 - [26] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: General Discussion, With a great sorrow in my heart I come to you now, seeking contrition from my sins. Noobs, who can only jump like monkeys throw RE's like a frisbee and use things not intended curse you. You're going to burn in hell. However, like me ))) Please support fair play!
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1630	Posted - 2015.03.06 23:58:00 - [27] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: If KDR normalizes then every match would have a theoretical even distribution (on average) of the terrible players with 1 KDR and the great players with the 1KDR, after this match the great players will have an inflated KDR and the bad players a terrible KDR, but then after their next match the bad players against bad players will be thrust higher at a 1KDR again, and the good players against good players will once again be thrust into the 1KDR again. If you graph this you'll have some wild rubber-band crap going on at the start of a player's lifespan, and as it progresses an almost unnoticeable "ripple" as the matches carry on, for the KDR/Match. This is why KDR just doesn't work in the long term, due to it inherently approaching 1 as t approaches infinity, limits are bastards, are they not? You need some kind of "teir" system, that bumps players up and down teirs, based on several performance factors. if you want an example of a proper system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system This system allows the individual player's rating to normalize to their inherent skill level, unlike KDR match making which forces the player's KDR to normalize to 1 which places everyone in the same "bracket" in the long run. Elo would allow you to be matched only to nearby players, and rise/fall/normalize accordingly. We are currently using such a system, I bet. It doesn't work. As for the one bracket idea, I welcome it. However, we would all be on a stack. Let's just say we have only 100 players (probably true ). They can't all have the exact same KDR, and every time they face one another, two people move up and down that stack. Scotty then divides it by the top 32, next 32, and on with squads entering the stack as an average of the squad KDR, but everyone in the squad having their outcome KDR figured individually. KDR is used to shake out the stomp factor, and other, more nuanced skills (teamwork, strategy) float players to the top. They, in turn, churn the KDR butter, and the system fluxes on several axes. So beautiful, I cry a little. Oh I get it now. Fucken Commie! Hey Soldner, why are you such a cynic? Ever read the dust forums? You'll know why.
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 1546	Posted - 2015.03.07 00:06:00 - [28] - Quote Who is up for an ISK amnesty. You get to keep 10m - the rest you must give up. If you are for this idea then you have DUST's future at heart. If you are against it, then you're committing crimes against humanity just like Rippers.
noob cavman Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 2163	Posted - 2015.03.07 11:09:00 - [29] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Who is up for an ISK amnesty. You get to keep 10m - the rest you must give up. If you are for this idea then you have DUST's future at heart. If you are against it, then you're committing crimes against humanity just like Rippers. **** yo welfare! hell has better music anyway. I want to be a caveman! Ccp: LEGION Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Full steam ahead into the enemies booty yarrr.
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1934	Posted - 2015.03.07 12:14:00 - [30] - Quote This is the story of a troll. The troll could smell a commotion, the activity it brought excited him. He crafted a thread, that would surely froth them into a fervor. Oh, the attention he'd receive! The sound of a shaken hive of bees within the confines of a glass cage. He posts the thread, shaking the already agitated hive, and slowly presses his face to the glass with a grim. Then as if by magic, it began to fill with what appeared to be an actual, discussion. He screamed "LOOK AT ME DAMN YOU, FOR IT IS I WHO SHOOK YOU!" but no one looked, or listened. Lady Fate had played a cruel joke. For she too was a troll. Hearing the lamentations of Amarr women since 92'.



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