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DarthJT5 wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

That would be a possibility too. The main point I'm getting at is that the whole "empty the magazine and hope you kill the target, if not you're probably going to die" mechanic is just....bad. It was overpowered before, its possibly nonviable now given these changes, and I just don't think that philosophy is going to work in general. What the proper philosophy is should probably be discussed in another thread, but I think the current one needs to change or it's just never going to work properly.

EDIT: Also....just a thought I had. If Mirofibs are making things jump higher, and if fall damage is untouched, at we going to see Scouts ...jumping themselves to death?

I would much rather have your idea from before. Empty magazine, taking out a huge chunk of HP from your target before they get their hardeners/other modules up, and then start the fight as you normally would, but you now have a great advantage over your opponent. It's better than the insta-gib mentality we have now, and MUCH better than what Rattati has put up there.

So, reduce magazine size to 10 missiles, reduce ROF by 30% instead of 50%, decrease reload time to around 5 seconds before skills, and then increase total ammo to be around 2.5x of rails so they can have comparable total damage.This way, you still have an ambush weapon, but you will require a reload or two to kill any well fit tank. It will still be the bane of low ehp or MLT tanks, but that's its purpose IMO.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 32 post(s)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5196	Posted - 2015.03.05 08:00:00 - [1] - Quote Simple Changes Backpedal speed only makes sense, people never moves quickly backwards as they do forwards. This will be a nice buff to Nova Knifers Jump Height increase seems fun, though I still think some base increase to jump height, even without a Mirofib, is much needed. A heavy shouldn't have to put on a module just to transverse basic terrain. Even a very small increase would help stop the Uplink Heavy Deathtraps we often see. 13% increase to Plasma Cannon alpha damage? WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?! BWAHAHAHAHA HMG changes look....interesting. We'll see how it all plays out. Cloak changes seem totally reasonable. When the role bonus of the Scout is the cloak, but you can't even use it until level 3 or 4 while still maintaining a viable fit....that's a problem. Hopefully this will ease that restriction up a bit. LAVs This seems like a reasonable stopgap to cut down on the excessively tanky, unfit LAVs. I do however think we need to have a full LAV pass at a later date to truly address them. (I know you're thinking, "Oh god, I'm never doing a vehicle rebalance again!" but honestly I think you'll find the LAV crowd far less.....feisty than the HAV crowd. As for dropships well....hahahaha....good luck with that one. Turrets General buff to Blasters looks pretty decent, massive decrease in magazine size is interesting to say the least. I might have to put a few more points into that reload speed now. We'll see how that plays out. Large Rails....looks like more shots per magazine....meh fine, I dont think it was needed but I can't think of a valid downside. Increase to heat buildup though....will that reduce the number of shots before overheat from 4 to 3 without a heat sink now? Large Missiles....well then, I knew they needed to be toned down a bit but I think you might have gone too far with that reload. We'll see how much it affects their performance but I'd keep an eye on that one. Vehicle Modules So shield hardeners will be harder to fit and armor hardeners will resist the same amount of damage now. This will probably discourage excessive stacking of shield hardeners, though I have to ask....shield hardeners do have a much shorter duration and a longer cooldown than an armor hardener. Given that Armor Hardeners will resist the same amount now, will you be looking at modifying the duration/cooldown of shield hardeners to bring it closer to armor hardeners? Shield Regulators look awesome. 2 Complex Regulators will reduce a 4 second delay down to ~1.8s which will be beastly against infantry AV (recharge delay will be shorter than AV weapon refire rate) Active Heat Sinks are awesome, I've missed them so. Dispersion Reduction modules look nice too, will be nice to give them a try. HAVs I noticed you decreased the resources for both HAVs (at least at the Proto level I checked), what is your reasoning behind this? The increase to skill multiplier is interesting to say the least. Do you have plans to add a bonus/level to this skill in the future? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5202	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:33:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Armor hardener needs to be viable, if you are hardening your shields, you still have them. That is not a luxury of armor hardeners. HAV resources were tuned down a bit to be future-proof for a PG/CPU boosting skills, also simply concerns for infantry balance. Don't get me wrong, the armor hardened bonus is a much appreciated buff. I just don't want shield hardeners to feel clearly inferior due to no direct advantage over armor hardeners. I guess we'll see how it plays out and go from there. Also glad to see you have PG/CPU skills on the table, that should appease a lot of people calling for that. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5214	Posted - 2015.03.06 01:57:00 - [3] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Yo Rattati armor hardeners needed some love but going from 50% worse than shield hardeners to 50% better is swaying the pendulum pretty far in the direction of armor tanks. Infantry is already dominated by armor.. we want tanks doing the same thing? I fear you might be misreading something there. From what I gathered, both armor and shield will now resist 40% damage, the only difference being shield hardeners last shorter and cool down slightly slower (same as it was before) so they are for all intensive purposes, inferior. Just throwing this out there but if we assume both will be 40%....is anyone really against just making them have the same duration/cooldown too? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5214	Posted - 2015.03.06 03:08:00 - [4] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Yo Rattati armor hardeners needed some love but going from 50% worse than shield hardeners to 50% better is swaying the pendulum pretty far in the direction of armor tanks. Infantry is already dominated by armor.. we want tanks doing the same thing? I fear you might be misreading something there. From what I gathered, both armor and shield will now resist 40% damage, the only difference being shield hardeners last shorter and cool down slightly slower (same as it was before) so they are for all intensive purposes, inferior. Though I wouldn't say 50% difference..but regardless Just throwing this out there but if we assume both will be 40%....is anyone really against just making them have the same duration/cooldown too? Well I was exaggerating the 50% for dramatic effect.. I understand they are proposed to both have 40 percent reduction... just seems like 40 seconds is a lot longer than 24 seconds when using the same reduction ( or whatever the durations are )... reducing the duration is the only thing that makes sense but we lose a bit of racial diversity... Still think those shield reps are going to be too low even at 1.8 secs... or whatever the stat is.... Well I agree, I don't want shield hardeners to feel clearly inferior. I think the higher resist + shorter duration vs lower resist + longer duration was a fine concept, just some of the numbers needed a tweak. I mean honestly I'm not really against just making them the same, I mean that is how it's done it EVE typically (I know this isn't EVE but....yeah it works there). Now one thing I could see Rattati potentially doing in the future is making Passive Damage Resistance Amps, and then making the shield ones clearly better than the armor ones. If memory serves that IS how things were back in the day....very similar resists for Hardeners, but Armor clearly lasted longer, but then the passive Damage Resistance Amps for shields were better than the ones for armor. I think something more along those lines may be acceptable as well. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5215	Posted - 2015.03.06 03:29:00 - [5] - Quote DarthJT5 wrote: J Missiles were already a niche turret, now your making them flat-out unviable. To be fair, the instagank mechanic really made armor tanking unenjoyable because well....no one likes to be instaganked with little ability to retaliate. I think something needed to change, but I also don't think I'm a huge fan of what happened. From what I can tell the damage per magazine didn't change, it just takes twice as long to apply the damage now and then....more reload time for some reason. I guess I feel like the concept of "I have to drop all 12 of these missiles into the guy and instakill it, otherwise I'm going to die during the reload" is.....really not going to be enjoyable overall. At the very least i don't think it suits a Missile Turret. I mean lets try to look at it this way: Blasters do crazy DPS up close with good tracking, but fail at long range due to falloff and sustained damage because of overheat and magazine size. Railguns do good burst damage at range with crappy tracking, but fail at close range due to tracking and sustained damage because of overheat and magazine size. Typically Missiles in EVE are useful because they are effective at any range from 0km to their max flight range of Xkm. They quite good at doing long sustained damage thats typically very consistent DPS. So why don't we instead move away from the "Instagank" concept we're trying to dance around with Missiles and go with a more "Effective at many ranges with moderate DPS but supurb sustained DPS because it lacks an overheat mechanic". In other words I would drop down the damage per magazine considerably, but also drastically decrease the reload time. That way the first volley is not lethal, but it will do considerable damage to an enemy vehicle (Preferably with its hardener down) but not kill it, and then quickly recover with a swift reload for round 2. The idea is that you want to ambush the vehicle to do as much damage as you can with the hardener down with the full understanding that you're not going to kill it, so that when the hardener does come up, the target vehicle is at much lower starting HP for the engagement. Missiles should be effective at both short and long range, and while they may not be able to out-DPS the other turrets within their overheat time, their sustained DPS is considerably higher once the Blaster and Rail have to wait to cool off/reload. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5218	Posted - 2015.03.06 06:00:00 - [6] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: My god, infantry-only Ambush? Is this for real? The very thing I think has been pleaded for since Chromsome. I might actually have to plug-in my PS3 again... Trust me, vehicles are the least of your worries in Ambush now. Fear the Blob. Fear the Train. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5219	Posted - 2015.03.06 06:19:00 - [7] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: My god, infantry-only Ambush? Is this for real? The very thing I think has been pleaded for since Chromsome. I might actually have to plug-in my PS3 again... Trust me, vehicles are the least of your worries in Ambush now. Fear the Blob. Fear the Train. I'm sorry but... I am the Blob. I am the Train. Oh everyone is, that's why it's a blob haha. Ambush should be changed to be called "8 Minutes of Face Kicking" "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5219	Posted - 2015.03.06 07:55:00 - [8] - Quote DarthJT5 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: anaboop wrote: @rat , im still awaiting reasoning or explaination on the missiles changes. Missiles were the reason madrugars are the rarest thing on the field. So their DPS was cut in half. Missiles can do 3700 DPS easily. That's not balanced against anything. Yes, the DPS was excessive, and I agree with that nerf. I don't agree with ANY of the other ones though. Reload speed should have actually had a buff to compensate for rails getting a larger magazine, total ammo increased instead of decreased.... I listed all of my reasons earlier. Missiles will be completely irrelevant to the rail after Echo. The reload change seemed to go in the wrong direction. I outlined it before but I think less damage per magazine, faster reload, is the best way to make the Missiles perform better without being so reliant on the "Kill in 1 salvo" mechanic. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5228	Posted - 2015.03.06 19:42:00 - [9] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: anaboop wrote: @rat , im still awaiting reasoning or explaination on the missiles changes. Missiles were the reason madrugars are the rarest thing on the field. So their DPS was cut in half. Missiles can do 3700 DPS easily. That's not balanced against anything. Yes, the DPS was excessive, and I agree with that nerf. I don't agree with ANY of the other ones though. Reload speed should have actually had a buff to compensate for rails getting a larger magazine, total ammo increased instead of decreased.... I listed all of my reasons earlier. Missiles will be completely irrelevant to the rail after Echo. The reload change seemed to go in the wrong direction. I outlined it before but I think less damage per magazine, faster reload, is the best way to make the Missiles perform better without being so reliant on the "Kill in 1 salvo" mechanic. I didn't originally suggest this in the new HAV thread because I'm not an expert on HAVs, but would returning the large missile turret to it's pre-1.7 operation mode (4 shot salvos) with a hybrid AV-AI functionality be preferable to the current suggestion? By the way, did anyone so far agree with the size of the AScR buff? That would be a possibility too. The main point I'm getting at is that the whole "empty the magazine and hope you kill the target, if not you're probably going to die" mechanic is just....bad. It was overpowered before, its possibly nonviable now given these changes, and I just don't think that philosophy is going to work in general. What the proper philosophy is should probably be discussed in another thread, but I think the current one needs to change or it's just never going to work properly. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5235	Posted - 2015.03.06 22:31:00 - [10] - Quote DarthJT5 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: That would be a possibility too. The main point I'm getting at is that the whole "empty the magazine and hope you kill the target, if not you're probably going to die" mechanic is just....bad. It was overpowered before, its possibly nonviable now given these changes, and I just don't think that philosophy is going to work in general. What the proper philosophy is should probably be discussed in another thread, but I think the current one needs to change or it's just never going to work properly. EDIT: Also....just a thought I had. If Mirofibs are making things jump higher, and if fall damage is untouched, at we going to see Scouts ...jumping themselves to death? I would much rather have your idea from before. Empty magazine, taking out a huge chunk of HP from your target before they get their hardeners/other modules up, and then start the fight as you normally would, but you now have a great advantage over your opponent. It's better than the insta-gib mentality we have now, and MUCH better than what Rattati has put up there. So, reduce magazine size to 10 missiles, reduce ROF by 30% instead of 50%, decrease reload time to around 5 seconds before skills, and then increase total ammo to be around 2.5x of rails so they can have comparable total damage.This way, you still have an ambush weapon, but you will require a reload or two to kill any well fit tank. It will still be the bane of low ehp or MLT tanks, but that's its purpose IMO. Pretty much. Im glad Rattati is looking at making the Large Missiles work better, but I think it may take a change in philosophy to make them work properly....I'll try to get off my ass today and work on some numbers. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net