DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] Hotfix Echo

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Foundation Seldon wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Bright Cloud wrote:

Could i get a explaination why max AV grenades carried goes from 2 to 3 and LAV's are getting nerfbatted to crap at the same time? I mean common the saga was allready a rolling deathtrap but with the AV grenade buff on top of it its going to be a nightmare driving a LAV. If you allready add more PG+CPU to them then add aswell more module slots.

And yes i do like to drive around with a gunner and a decent fit on the car which can cost up to 140k ISK. And you should know that less HP on the saga= better jihad LAV cause it blows up much quicker when bumping a tank.

if you're spec'd deep into LAVs and the mods then it'll make it easier to put a heavy shield extender and/or other powerful defensive modules into the LAV.

With the current fitting limitations it's possible to stick a 120mm STD plate on a methana. With the fitting buff I might even be able to put in a heavy repper. the idea is if you're not willing to skill into them, they are, and should be, deathtraps.

But if you're willing to do the work and burn the ISK, you should be able to make them good.

The point is that, even with the fitting buff, they'll be no where near as strong as they are now. You didn't NEED to fit a plate on the Methana in its current state of the game due to its base HP pool and on top of that you could stick a hardener on to further increase your effectiveness. Now you need a 120mm plate to ALMOST make up for the difference in the base main HP pool and lose the hardener if you want any sort of repair.

Without a further buff to their slot layout, it's an objective nerf to the LAV as a vehicle class in the game.

because an untanked LAV eating two prototype AV hits made it too easy to troll around a heavy murder taxi or JLAV and be able to eat 2-3 railgun shots while delivering an RE lance to the victim.

Light vehicles should not be casually taking hits in a manner similar to a tank.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 32 post(s)
Foundation Seldon Heaven's Lost Property 879	Posted - 2015.03.05 06:32:00 - [1] - Quote Light Assault Vehicle Hmm ... hard to say anything without having solid numbers in front of me. The Methana/Baloch needed the hit point nerf as their base HP pools were sort of monstrous and if I can replace the hit points I lost with potentially a 120mm Plate thanks to the increased fitting then it's all the same for me. The Saga on the other hand was already pretty much glass. Of the 2 LAVs it was lacking significantly thanks to needing to dedicate its highs for increasing its tank in an environment in which no real utility based low slots (on par with Scanners/Nitrous) existed. The Saga-II was pretty much the only viable model from an actual Light ASSAULT Vehicle point of view. We'll see, again the fitting changes could very well make my concerns moot. I'd still prefer just having more slots to play around with though ... New Vehicle Modules Love em, especially the dispersion module that gives limited infantry slaying capability on the large blaster. We desperately needed this to encourage the Tank > Infantry > Anti-Tank interplay that we saw in earlier parts of the game. Crossing my fingers that people will actually start bringing them out again and we'll start seeing real asset escalation during a match. In their current state the only reason people really brought out tanks was to kill other vehicles (usually Dropships), run back to redline, and recall them once they were dispatched, now there'll be a reason to keep them around. HAV Revamp Love it, having access to protofits to try our hardest to break everything was pretty damn snazzy. And with going back on the Hardener fitting restriction change I'm confident that the Gunnlogi will at least stand a chance against the now downright terrifying Madrugar. Marduk/Gladius Do we have a skill bonus yet for these? Small Blaster Tweaking - We keep messing around with these but I'll stick to what I've always said. So long as the Small Missile and Small Railgun both have the ability to effectively take on infantry and vehicles alike there will never be an incentive to limiting your targets by using a Small Blaster instead. We seriously need to look at maybe modeling them like the new Large Blaster in having Low ROF high damage per shot (to break shield regen) and the ability to take on vehicles and infantry alike. Issues that still need to be looked at : Vehicle Shield Boosters. Seriously, they're broken and have been since the initial vehicle revamp hit Uprising. Because they're tied to the Shield Recharge mechanics they can be interrupted and thus they're not at all reliable in the thick of battle. Doubly so now that Large Blasters are looking to actually be a threat. May want to consider bringing back their previous function in just having HP pools that come back by X amount after every pulse of the module. Hardener/Booster Effect still obscuring Small Turret aim, self explanatory. Not sure how viable it is to see the old effects make a return but I'll keep advocating for those because they worked! :P But all and all, great stuff. Certainly more interesting than the initial release of Warlords.
Foundation Seldon Heaven's Lost Property 879	Posted - 2015.03.05 07:13:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: Light Assault Vehicle Hmm ... hard to say anything without having solid numbers in front of me. Numbers are in the link Oh okay let's see what we're dealing with he- -Saga and Methana HP pools cut in half- Um ... hm. On the bright side their Shield Regen is able to be broken by a Small Blaster thanks to the lower threshold so yay limited AV capability. Well let's see what we can do on the fitting side before we freak out , with max armor/shield fitting prof. we can do ... Methana - High- complex scanner 124CPU Low- Basic 120mm Plate 76CPU 401PG Enhanced Light Armor Rep. 78CPU 156PG Turret- Advanced Railgun 75CPU 109PG Armor - 2240 Saga - ~I'll do it later but with the shield regen changes and the healthpool nerf my Saga-II is not looking so hot. :P ~ Definitely a nerf as currently I'm able to use a hardener and rely on its base health pool instead. I really have to question the intentions here, were LAVs in and of themselves a problem or was it the specific LAV/HMG Heavy combo that prompted this? If the data showed that LAVs themselves were a problem (which I kinda doubt) then this is justified. If you're just looking to nerf driveby heavies then I'm really going to have to recommend additional slots as well to compensate. We don't want to punish LAVs themselves for a problem that really has to do with the ease of getting out and gunning someone down before driving away. If the intention however is to make LAVs more vulnerable as an overall design decision (they were super vulnerable to AV grenades back in Chro for example and were made WAY tougher with Uprising and Uprising Post-Vehicle revamp) then we'll just see how it plays out. Additional Hanging Issues : Speed penalty on Complex 60mm Plates is currently greater than Basic/Enhanced 120mm Plates and equal to Complex 120mm Plates which diminishes the incentive in fitting them. Can we get a smooth progression that has the speed penalty scaling like this Complex 120 > Enhanced 120 > Basic 120 > Complex 60 > Enhanced 60 > Basic 60?
Foundation Seldon Heaven's Lost Property 879	Posted - 2015.03.05 07:21:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Hm. Do we really need 3x AV grenades, after the damage buffs they got to compensate for only carrying 2? Given that virtually no one uses them I don't see why not. Edit : And plus you're gonna want it thanks to the hilariously terrifying new HAV paradigm.
Foundation Seldon Heaven's Lost Property 881	Posted - 2015.03.05 23:52:00 - [4] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Could i get a explaination why max AV grenades carried goes from 2 to 3 and LAV's are getting nerfbatted to crap at the same time? I mean common the saga was allready a rolling deathtrap but with the AV grenade buff on top of it its going to be a nightmare driving a LAV. If you allready add more PG+CPU to them then add aswell more module slots. And yes i do like to drive around with a gunner and a decent fit on the car which can cost up to 140k ISK. And you should know that less HP on the saga= better jihad LAV cause it blows up much quicker when bumping a tank. if you're spec'd deep into LAVs and the mods then it'll make it easier to put a heavy shield extender and/or other powerful defensive modules into the LAV. With the current fitting limitations it's possible to stick a 120mm STD plate on a methana. With the fitting buff I might even be able to put in a heavy repper. the idea is if you're not willing to skill into them, they are, and should be, deathtraps. But if you're willing to do the work and burn the ISK, you should be able to make them good. The point is that, even with the fitting buff, they'll be no where near as strong as they are now. You didn't NEED to fit a plate on the Methana in its current state of the game due to its base HP pool and on top of that you could stick a hardener on to further increase your effectiveness. Now you need a 120mm plate to ALMOST make up for the difference in the base main HP pool and lose the hardener if you want any sort of repair. Without a further buff to their slot layout, it's an objective nerf to the LAV as a vehicle class in the game.
Foundation Seldon Heaven's Lost Property 881	Posted - 2015.03.06 00:04:00 - [5] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Could i get a explaination why max AV grenades carried goes from 2 to 3 and LAV's are getting nerfbatted to crap at the same time? I mean common the saga was allready a rolling deathtrap but with the AV grenade buff on top of it its going to be a nightmare driving a LAV. If you allready add more PG+CPU to them then add aswell more module slots. And yes i do like to drive around with a gunner and a decent fit on the car which can cost up to 140k ISK. And you should know that less HP on the saga= better jihad LAV cause it blows up much quicker when bumping a tank. if you're spec'd deep into LAVs and the mods then it'll make it easier to put a heavy shield extender and/or other powerful defensive modules into the LAV. With the current fitting limitations it's possible to stick a 120mm STD plate on a methana. With the fitting buff I might even be able to put in a heavy repper. the idea is if you're not willing to skill into them, they are, and should be, deathtraps. But if you're willing to do the work and burn the ISK, you should be able to make them good. The point is that, even with the fitting buff, they'll be no where near as strong as they are now. You didn't NEED to fit a plate on the Methana in its current state of the game due to its base HP pool and on top of that you could stick a hardener on to further increase your effectiveness. Now you need a 120mm plate to ALMOST make up for the difference in the base main HP pool and lose the hardener if you want any sort of repair. Without a further buff to their slot layout, it's an objective nerf to the LAV as a vehicle class in the game. because an untanked LAV eating two prototype AV hits made it too easy to troll around a heavy murder taxi or JLAV and be able to eat 2-3 railgun shots while delivering an RE lance to the victim. Light vehicles should not be casually taking hits in a manner similar to a tank. But that's a different argument entirely, my point was that the change to the fitting doesn't make up for the huge hit they took from their HP pools. I agree that unfitted LAVs were too effective but if the LAVs in and of themselves were not a problem (and I seriously doubt they were from an overall effect on the battlefield point of view) then I don't see the reasoning behind punishing the few who actually DID fit out their LAVs as a side effect of the problem with BPO LAV spam and Driveby Heavies. An extra slot would keep the actual dedicated LAV drivers happy, increase fitting diversity among them, and punish those who only want to use them as driveby tools and cheap beefy transport.
Foundation Seldon Heaven's Lost Property 881	Posted - 2015.03.06 00:18:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: But that's a different argument entirely, my point was that the change to the fitting doesn't make up for the huge hit they took from their HP pools. I agree that unfitted LAVs were too effective but if the LAVs in and of themselves were not a problem (and I seriously doubt they were from an overall effect on the battlefield point of view) then I don't see the reasoning behind punishing the few who actually DID fit out their LAVs as a side effect of the problem with BPO LAV spam and Driveby Heavies. An extra slot would keep the actual dedicated LAV drivers happy, increase fitting diversity among them, and punish those who only want to use them as driveby tools and cheap beefy transport. if fitted LAVs are dying too easily then start making posts about it. Make them surviuvable as you can, and if they're still getting casually annihilated then ask for another slot. this is, unfortunately, something that has to be tested in-game, kinda like the HAV changes. I can say HAVs are going to be a nightmare to kill all I want, but until we get into them and try to DO it, it's crystal balling. Crystal balling with the advantage of knowing what's up, sure, but still crystal balling My posts are based on my experience as an LAV driver, they will OBJECTIVELY be easier to kill due to the changes I mentioned. You don't cut their individual health pools by half, keep the slot layout the same, only buff their fitting to the point that they can only BARELY get to the numbers of their primary non-hardened health pools pre-Echo, and then buff AV grenades and not come to that conclusion. I don't believe it needs a crystal ball to say that running a fitted LAV post-Echo is going to be markedly more difficult. But hey, at least my new Methana can use a Complex Scanner with an Advanced Railgun now, right? We'll see how it plays out.