DUST Search - [Request] Reduce rail turret and forge efficiency against infantry.

KA24DERT wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

KA24DERT wrote:

I'm sure it requires skill to rail snipe, but those skills are prevalent, and the reality is that there's rail tankers sniping infantry in every other match, and doing so effectively.

I've seen rail gunners hit moving targets, and many of my deaths are on the move horizontally to the tank. But even assuming that ALL rail turret kills are against horizontally still targets, this is still a problem as there are many vital chokepoints (like hack panels) that generate those types of targets, and a single direct hit will kill most dropsuits.

The same argument could be made that skilled players can consistently kill infantry in 1 shot with a Plasma Cannon. Do you have an issue with that as well? Additionally a Sniper is more than capable of dominating a choke point as well, do you have an issue with that?

The skill and luck required to land a plasma cannon shot at range are in a different league compared to a rail turret. If some of the same constraints (projectile speed, range, arc, reload) were applied to Rails, sniping infantry with rails would be much less prevalent, and Blaster turrets would fill the AI niche in a much more sane way. But besides that I've mentioned before that I'd be happy with a 4-shot plasma cannon with reduced damage for the very reason you illustrate.

Also most snipers need 2-3 hits to kill a dropsuit, so not really comparable when the BASE rail turret is a one shot kill with no damage modifiers. Snipers can control a choke point sure, but Rails absolutely dominate them.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5166	Posted - 2015.03.04 09:58:00 - [1] - Quote It's really not that easy to sniped infantry with a forge or railgun unless they're being derpy and just standing there. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5179	Posted - 2015.03.04 17:39:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: So does a sniper rifle, which both out-ranges and is fully capable of killing a sentinel outright if you use the charged variant. Plus a Forge Gun basically doesn't have any zoom like a sniper rifle, and a railgun can't hold the charge like a sniper rifle. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5206	Posted - 2015.03.05 21:10:00 - [3] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Anyone have that document handy? I'd love to see this PC document again and look up the Forge Gun in how it's ranked for kills Pokey put it into a Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bUltXQYBFeUqpvWsTbX72PEcSkUKlrqi8MSfWm3il0c/edit The forges are way down there, but the Rails being so high on the kill count probably means there's a problem. I guarentee you, the reason large rails are even remotely high is because they're often used to guard hack points, where people are forced to stand still for extended periods of time. It's a common tactic to use a rail to defend a point, but it is not indicative that the rails themselves are over performing against infantry. I'm not sure how much experience you have using large rails, but there are many factors working against them, which makes them difficult to use. Zoom is crappy for very small targets Turret rotation speed is difficult to use against small targets, especially at close range Charge cannot be held, meaning you have to predict where the target will be after the charge fires Projectile has travel time, so not only do you have to predict where the target will be be after the charge time, but you also have to account for travel time for the shot to get there No splash damage means it has to be a direct hit This is a glitch, but the projectile rarely hits where the aiming dot is, typically you have to compensate by not pointing directly at what you're shooting. So again....sure, if infantry are standing still its easy to snipe them, but thats true for any weapon. Under actual battle conditions where the target is moving, it actually takes quite a lot of skill to snipe infantry on a consistent basis with a large railgun. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5207	Posted - 2015.03.05 22:11:00 - [4] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: I'm sure it requires skill to rail snipe, but those skills are prevalent, and the reality is that there's rail tankers sniping infantry in every other match, and doing so effectively. I've seen rail gunners hit moving targets, and many of my deaths are on the move horizontally to the tank. But even assuming that ALL rail turret kills are against horizontally still targets, this is still a problem as there are many vital chokepoints (like hack panels) that generate those types of targets, and a single direct hit will kill most dropsuits. The same argument could be made that skilled players can consistently kill infantry in 1 shot with a Plasma Cannon. Do you have an issue with that as well? Additionally a Sniper is more than capable of dominating a choke point as well, do you have an issue with that? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5207	Posted - 2015.03.05 22:36:00 - [5] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: KA24DERT wrote: I'm sure it requires skill to rail snipe, but those skills are prevalent, and the reality is that there's rail tankers sniping infantry in every other match, and doing so effectively. I've seen rail gunners hit moving targets, and many of my deaths are on the move horizontally to the tank. But even assuming that ALL rail turret kills are against horizontally still targets, this is still a problem as there are many vital chokepoints (like hack panels) that generate those types of targets, and a single direct hit will kill most dropsuits. The same argument could be made that skilled players can consistently kill infantry in 1 shot with a Plasma Cannon. Do you have an issue with that as well? Additionally a Sniper is more than capable of dominating a choke point as well, do you have an issue with that? The skill and luck required to land a plasma cannon shot at range are in a different league compared to a rail turret. If some of the same constraints (projectile speed, range, arc, reload) were applied to Rails, sniping infantry with rails would be much less prevalent, and Blaster turrets would fill the AI niche in a much more sane way. But besides that I've mentioned before that I'd be happy with a 4-shot plasma cannon with reduced damage for the very reason you illustrate. Also most snipers need 2-3 hits to kill a dropsuit, so not really comparable when the BASE rail turret is a one shot kill with no damage modifiers. Snipers can control a choke point sure, but Rails absolutely dominate them. Except rails DO have constraints, as I listed above. Not the exact same constraints as the PLC, but they're there. The fact remains that you're literally aiming at a couple pixels on the screen and the hit detection on it is dubious at best. It is not easy to consistently hit people with the large railgun, and saying "skill is OP" really isn't a valid argument. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5211	Posted - 2015.03.05 23:22:00 - [6] - Quote And again as I said, the majority of the kills you're seeing in PC are focused around people standing still at hack points and being blown off the panel. The amount of kills that happen outside of that specific situation are not substantial enough to merit this sort of change. It is easily the most difficult turret to use against infantry. I don't see why people feel the need to make it even worse. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5212	Posted - 2015.03.05 23:54:00 - [7] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: And again as I said, the majority of the kills you're seeing in PC are focused around people standing still at hack points and being blown off the panel. The amount of kills that happen outside of that specific situation are not substantial enough to merit this sort of change. It is easily the most difficult turret to use against infantry. I don't see why people feel the need to make it even worse. It's typical "it killed me, nerf it." I get it. No one likes to be instantly killed, but that's the nature of A LOT of weapons in Dust, all of which have been complained about as some point (save perhaps the Plasma Cannon). But the fact remains that a mix of downsides and situational requirements are what makes these balanced. Again I'm not sure how much experience the OP has with railguns, but from my personal experience this change is not needed. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5272	Posted - 2015.03.08 21:40:00 - [8] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: I wish more tankers/forgers would come up with better numbers for what's fair against infantry, but so far it appears that "fair" is 1200 damage. So, when a new player comes into the game, I should tell them "This is a Large Railgun, It's used to kill vehicles. It will take 2-4 shots to kill the vehicle. Oh and it'll take the same number of shots to kill infantry too" and the new player will look at me and laugh because he thinks I'm joking. If you want to make Large Rails harder to use against infantry, that's fine. But as I told Kane in the Skype chat, there are half a dozen attributes that affect the performance of Large Railguns against infantry, and people are only focusing on the damage. Do I think it should be easy to snipe infantry? No. But god damn if I hit them they need to be liquified. Also a multi shot Plasma Cannon does does less damage per shot? We have that already, it's called the Breach Mass Driver. Why do we need another weapon that does the same thing? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5273	Posted - 2015.03.09 00:09:00 - [9] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Plasma Cannon is anti shield. It wouldn't be the same thing. By that logic we should go back to just having the AR, but that's besides the point. Because the natural weapon of Assault Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Combat rifle are all different? If you want to have a variant with multiple weaker shots of the Plasma Cannon, sure. But the nature of weapon in terms of AV is highly dependent upon it's high alpha damage. Are you saying we should make it less effective against vehicles because you don't like getting 1-shotted as an infantry? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5274	Posted - 2015.03.09 08:52:00 - [10] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Plasma Cannon is anti shield. It wouldn't be the same thing. By that logic we should go back to just having the AR, but that's besides the point. Because the natural weapon of Assault Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Combat rifle are all different? If you want to have a variant with multiple weaker shots of the Plasma Cannon, sure. But the nature of weapon in terms of AV is highly dependent upon it's high alpha damage. Are you saying we should make it less effective against vehicles because you don't like getting 1-shotted as an infantry? It wouldn't necessarily be less effective. You can modify direct damage, rounds per clip, reload, and time between shots to strike a balance. It's also possible to preserve the current Plasma Cannon, but I would like that variant to have low efficiency against infantry to prevent most insta-kills. I'm not saying that AV should be less effective against vehicles. This whole thread is about reducing AV alpha damage against infantry specifically. You ....don't use Plasma Cannons all that much do you? Because the kinds of changes you're proposing (Because apparently you feel that Plasma Cannon kills on infantry are rampant enough to merit a change) would indeed make them less effective in the kinds of AV roles they fill. facepalm Just nevermind, I give up. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5274	Posted - 2015.03.09 11:12:00 - [11] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KA24DERT wrote: I use the plasma cannon every day. I could give you some long spiel about how hard it is to use, how much skill is involved, but it's irrelevant, ultimately myself and others are popping people in one hit on a regular basis. But this argument is boiling down into 2 camps: 1) The Low TTK instagib camp 2) The High TTK no instagib camp If you swing one way or the other you can achieve your desired dynamic with all sorts of mechanic changes. The core disagreement is over TTK. You guys think instant deaths are crucial to fun game design, and I think it's more fun to have drawn out brawls with time to react. I'll let the player retention speak for itself on that. But yeah, of course, if you like low ttk and instagibs, this thread is a hilarious heresy to you. That's a poor generalisation as I believe in certain circumstances Low TTK makes for good mechanics while in other not so good. Im curious to see how many shots it should take for a shotgun to kill someone. 5 or 6 maybe? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net