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![[Veteran_Nova Knife]](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png "[Veteran_Nova Knife]")
[Veteran_Nova Knife]
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Posted - 2012.05.29 23:42:00 -
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Topic says it all.
Currently, there is no reason for anyone who is not a heavy to even touch armor plates. Most people will have the passive armor repair units just for extra suvivability, but primarily shield tanking is better, without question. Infantry Armor tanking is currently a joke. In replication the plates were given a HP buff to offset the mobility penalty, but it wasn't enough of a buff in my opinion. Mobility is what wins firefights in dust currently, and the bonus to HP helps but doesn't quite offset this. Another 15-25% to the current stats would be more acceptable for the infantry plating, and a slightly larger decrease in mobility... Maybe an added 2% to the penalty of each tier.
As for the passive armor repair units, where do i even start? Without any modules, a non heavy suit's shields will regen at bare minimum 20 HP/s, more with skills, scouts can reach over 50 hp/s without any modules. It deserves mentioning that shields have a delay before they kick in to repair, and armor is constant regardless of incoming damage, though. Still, the differences are staggering. I would recommend at bare minimum these units get jacked up to 5, 10, and 15 respectively for standard, advanced, and prototype with somewhat higher fitting requirements as a result. maybe even adding the same delay shields have. Edit: Militia should stay at the current 2HP/s
I feel the above is a must.
Optionally.. (I have not given this a lot of thought, I'll admit. I feel it's worth consideration though) To keep things balanced, fitting shield rechargers or armor repair units should penalize the other, to prevent everyone from getting tanks similar to heavy suits with crazy dualtanked regenerations. |
[Veteran_Noc Tempre]
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Posted - 2012.05.29 23:49:00 -
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I think shields have lower resists atm. They seem to take fewer bullets to breach than the same HP of armor. There are other ways to balance the two. I also like the constant of armor rep vs passive of shield. Makes them different. Armor plates should give twice the bonus of the same level shield extender at least. |
[Veteran_Wesley Magyar]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 00:01:00 -
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Nova Knife wrote:Topic says it all.
Currently, there is no reason for anyone who is not a heavy to even touch armor plates. Most people will have the passive armor repair units just for extra suvivability, but primarily shield tanking is better, without question. Infantry Armor tanking is currently a joke. In replication the plates were given a HP buff to offset the mobility penalty, but it wasn't enough of a buff in my opinion. Mobility is what wins firefights in dust currently, and the bonus to HP helps but doesn't quite offset this. Another 15-25% to the current stats would be more acceptable for the infantry plating, and a slightly larger decrease in mobility... Maybe an added 2% to the penalty of each tier.
As for the passive armor repair units, where do i even start? Without any modules, a non heavy suit's shields will regen at bare minimum 20 HP/s, more with skills, scouts can reach over 50 hp/s without any modules. It deserves mentioning that shields have a delay before they kick in to repair, and armor is constant regardless of incoming damage, though. Still, the differences are staggering. I would recommend at bare minimum these units get jacked up to 5, 10, and 15 respectively for standard, advanced, and prototype with somewhat higher fitting requirements as a result. maybe even adding the same delay shields have. Edit: Militia should stay at the current 2HP/s
I feel the above is a must.
Optionally.. (I have not given this a lot of thought, I'll admit. I feel it's worth consideration though) To keep things balanced, fitting shield rechargers or armor repair units should penalize the other, to prevent everyone from getting tanks similar to heavy suits with crazy dualtanked regenerations.
/signed
Seriously PLEASE boost the armor rep amount. i could sit for 3-4 minutes with the armor repper on my heavy dropsuit and still not fully rep my armor... this is kinda sad. |
[Veteran_equto]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 00:03:00 -
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I feel that armor is certainly there to save you once your shields pop and thats about it. Your Shields die unreasonably fast even with extenders and then unless you have a passive armor module you are pretty much doomed to die next shot. Armor is for heavys only I guess. |
[Veteran_Noc Tempre]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 00:06:00 -
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We also have to remember resistance mods and logistics are coming. Still agree things need some good work to fix. |
[Veteran_Xocoyol Zaraoul]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 00:17:00 -
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I do agree on most points, though I would have to say even armor plates are bad on heavies. There is just no point to them at all in my opinion. I don't see any top-scoring heavy using plates, I always see their HP creep back up slowly which means reppers. |
[Veteran_Soven Taliesyn]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 00:42:00 -
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i don't feel like reading the other post.
i just wanted to say, that something always felt unfavored towards shields, that they seem weak sauce in comparison to armor even if you do have more shield hp than armor hp. |
[Veteran_Vesta Ren]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 01:33:00 -
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Shields are definitely a more flexible way to fit, if your on a hot streak your usually back to full strength between firefights. Armour on the other hand boosts survivability a lot, but you get worn down over progressive encounters. As a true amarr, I've always liked armour, but so far i've been favoring shields for their regen. |
[Veteran_Orion-ji Tor]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 01:37:00 -
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I agree on the point that armor tanking needs to be more viable, but at the same time so does shield tanking. Currently ,unless I am mistaken, there are no damage mods which can be fit in the lows(like in EVE), thus making shield tanking more viable. So far I don't seem to have a problem duel tanking, but my playstyle suits it a bit better I think.
I think, once the resistance mods get put in(for dropsuits), it will make a much bigger difference.
PS Logi (prototype) dropsuits get 4 his/4 lows  |
[Veteran_Mars Theranon]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 02:34:00 -
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I'm not sure, but I don't think it's really intended that we invest a lot in armor tanking.It might be practical, (and even possibly the best) in EVE, but these are Dropsuits rather than spaceships. Concern I think is more with Mobility than what kind of tank you have. Just use what's best.
It's great to have a back-up armor rep for hiding after getting hit hard, then moving back into the field, but really, I don't think anybody is expecting to, (or expected to), tank the hits in armor while spraying and praying. The best option for infantry has always been to not get hit. EVE doesn't have that option unless you count interceptors, where in Dust, you can miss and be missed entirely. |
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[Veteran_Mavado V Noriega]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 02:43:00 -
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my concern is if armor reps get a buff what happens when ppl have both shield ext + buffed armor reps on now?
now resistance mods as ppl say arent in yet so maybe those will even it out once they do but without them idk
i do notice shields droppin alot quicker than armor tho, buffin armor reppers too much might not be a good idea
giving armor plates more HP and slightly less movement penalty might be a better fix? |
[Veteran_PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 16:09:00 -
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The system is fine. I've ran around using top tier shield regeneration/ extenders with top tier armor plating/repair at the same time. You move a bit slower, but there are ways to make up for the decreased mobility. Survivability is increased tremendously, but i wouldn't suggest it for everybody seeing as it might not fit your particular play style seeing as most people aren't didn't spec to be a super soldier/captain america/iron man.
if you want your armor to be repaired faster get a nano hive with armor repair. |
[Veteran_Discordamon]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 16:19:00 -
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Part of the problem is that we only have a partial list of the suits (I hope?), no Amarr assault suit for instance, and the suits don't have native modifiers like: Caldari Assault Dropsuit - + 5% shield resistance per level, Dropsuit Command - +3% mobility per level. Something like that.
One could imagine that there would be an Amarr assault drop suit that would have MUCH higher armor stats and lower shield stats, if they follow the Eve model. These suits might have an inherent modifier like: Amarr Assault Dropsuit - +5% effectiveness of armor repairers per level, Dropsuit Command - + 3% mobility per level.
I just think we're missing pieces of the puzzle right now. Hopefully it's expanded so all classes have a dropsuit for each race. |
[Veteran_Garmom]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 16:29:00 -
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Yeah I mentioned that stuff about the racial suits in a general discussion thread.
Honestly what no one is bringing up here is that in Dust, the damage mod goes in the midslot instead of the lowslot. This alone is a crazy buff for armour tanks, although the damage mod numbers right now are a bit lacklustre compared to EVE.
In anycase, armour tanked dropsuits will become high DPS, low mobility bricks for the most part if you go buffer. |
[Veteran_RolyatDerTeufel]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 16:38:00 -
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Discordamon wrote:Part of the problem is that we only have a partial list of the suits (I hope?), no Amarr assault suit for instance, and the suits don't have native modifiers like: Caldari Assault Dropsuit - + 5% shield resistance per level, Dropsuit Command - +3% mobility per level. Something like that.
One could imagine that there would be an Amarr assault drop suit that would have MUCH higher armor stats and lower shield stats, if they follow the Eve model. These suits might have an inherent modifier like: Amarr Assault Dropsuit - +5% effectiveness of armor repairers per level, Dropsuit Command - + 3% mobility per level.
I just think we're missing pieces of the puzzle right now. Hopefully it's expanded so all classes have a dropsuit for each race.
I hope we have more of the racial options for dropsuits that benefit if used with modules that have background with the ships in EVE. a bonus in armor rep for gallente scouts bonus for plates on a gallente heavy or assault. Whatever prereqs for lasers with dropsuits is reduced with a higher tier of Amarr dropsuit.
I cannot wait to test the shield transfers and remote reps. |
[Veteran_Memeotis]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 17:08:00 -
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I'm sorry, but I disagree. Sure you can add some marginal changes to armor rep and mess around the shield's HP and recharge rate, but the biggest issue is the rate at which the shield begins to regenerate. Currently lag and hitbox detection plays a big part, so I'm still waiting to see how it's going to be post-patch. I would be very cautious about bringing the shield regen and armor regen too close together, because unlike shield regen, armor regen can be actively improved by remote rep.
I think the reason people feel that armor tanking is currently pointless is because the primary item that actually complements armor tanking is not in the game. I think we should wait for the repair tool. I hear that beating women is a good way to pass the time. |
[Veteran_Mavado V Noriega]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 17:47:00 -
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Memeotis wrote:I'm sorry, but I disagree. Sure you can add some marginal changes to armor rep and mess around the shield's HP and recharge rate, but the biggest issue is the rate at which the shield begins to regenerate. Currently lag and hitbox detection plays a big part, so I'm still waiting to see how it's going to be post-patch. I would be very cautious about bringing the shield regen and armor regen too close together, because unlike shield regen, armor regen can be actively improved by remote rep.
I think the reason people feel that armor tanking is currently pointless is because the primary item that actually complements armor tanking is not in the game. I think we should wait for the repair tool. I hear that beating women is a good way to pass the time.
i agree with Meme
rep tools once back would play a big role and even Nova u said many times a heavy wont ever die if he has a good logibro with him  |
[Veteran_Oede Usaema]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 18:18:00 -
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This isn't EVE, shields and armour aren't interchangeable analogues of eachother, they're both systems that provide specific benefits and rely on eachother to keep you alive for sustained periods.
Shields and regens are designed to make sure you can get between fight to fight without exhausting yourself and armour is designed to make sure you don't instantly disintergrate in overwhelming circumstances and have the buffer to escape, with reppers to make sure you don't eventually fizzle out after a while. They're both important aspects of a setup and should be considered.
You vastly overestimate the problems the speed penalty causes for non-scouts, no other suit can speedtank like a scout, so they still get good value out of armour plates (apart from heavies incidentally, they should use reppers and shield stuff). If anything, this is just a smaller aspect of the overall scout imbalance when various optimisation and balancing factors cause scouts to move at a metre per frame, allowing them to dodge enough bullets to actually regen within an engagement and often not even see their armour tank decrease.
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[Veteran_SILENTSAM 69]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:53:00 -
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There is still Logi equipment coming out that will make armor more useful. When a heavy guy can have a logi quickly rep his armor he will seem even more powerful. A heavy with guys supporting him will be almost like a tank. it will be great. |
[Veteran_UltraMind Regenersis]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 20:30:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:There is still Logi equipment coming out that will make armor more useful. When a heavy guy can have a logi quickly rep his armor he will seem even more powerful. A heavy with guys supporting him will be almost like a tank. it will be great.
until a sniper takes out the logi repper........ |
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[Veteran_Degren Cthulhu]
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Posted - 2012.05.31 00:35:00 -
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on the suit i was using it had 2 armour reps giving 6hp back a cycle before skills and repair systems at 4 dont know what the end total is but it didnt take long to fully rep the armour. cant wait to see what a proper skilled armour tanker can do tbh
plus you get shields for free haha which leaves space for those damage mods |
[Veteran_Heinikikin]
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Posted - 2012.05.31 02:18:00 -
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Oede Usaema wrote:This isn't EVE, shields and armour aren't interchangeable analogues of eachother, they're both systems that provide specific benefits and rely on eachother to keep you alive for sustained periods.
Shields and regens are designed to make sure you can get between fight to fight without exhausting yourself and armour is designed to make sure you don't instantly disintergrate in overwhelming circumstances and have the buffer to escape, with reppers to make sure you don't eventually fizzle out after a while. They're both important aspects of a setup and should be considered.
This.
I have not be playing very long but this is the impression I get. It feels like your shields are a renewable buffer for your armor. Is this a good thing? Not sure. Perhaps balancing between the shield:armor ratio certain roles can possibly achieve is the way to go instead of balancing shield vs armor. |
[Veteran_Rafe Zetter]
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Posted - 2012.05.31 11:04:00 -
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Bear in mind that Dust's starting point for tanking was the probably Eve. Specifically that 2 armour reps are roughly equal to 1 shield booster.
Where this model falls down in dust is that there is no capacitor use and [all?] the regen is passive.
That said there does seem to be a huge disparity with the armour rep rate - I started a post in bugs recently because I thought that the repair system skill was bugged (specifically level 3) because I actually seemed to rep less armour at level 3 than level 3 but its certainly questionable if fitting an armour rep is actually worth it! |
[Veteran_sendeth]
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Posted - 2012.05.31 14:49:00 -
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if you or a team mate drops a nanohive, the armor regens a lot quicker. thats what i do. |
[Veteran_Nova Knife]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:14:00 -
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I have been playing more with armor plate fits, and I am reaffirming my suggestion in the OP.
Either plates all need a slight increase to their HP, or the movement speed penalty needs to go down, maybe even both.. Right now they do not offset each other in a way that feels useful, comfortable or proper for balance. You can comfortably fit max shield tank with pretty much no downsides, but armor gives you a heavy penalty. I'd be more in favor of reducing the movement speed penalties to 2%, 4% and 6% instead of 3%, 5% and 10%, and see how it goes from there. Alternatively, Keep the movement speed penalties but increase the HP gain to 40 (militia), 65 for basic, 90 for enhanced, and 125 for prototype. The PG costs for plates are already pretty high, so it's tough to fit a lot of the plates as it is.
I did some playing around, and a proto assault with 4x prototype plates can get around 700 armor HP. This may sound like a lot, but the assault is then only .20m/s faster than a heavy, which makes it a lighter tanked heavy with no heavy weapon to compensate. Now, you'd never really want to roll one of these in combat (Unless maybe you had an amazing pair of logibros behind you) But even a couple proto plates can give you +200 HP, the lessened mobility is still killer.
With the way armor tanking currently is between the reppers and the plates giving a penalty, while shields have no downside whatsoever aside from the 'damage delay' before recharging... This makes armor tanking nothing more than a secondary tank on a non heavy suit. I'd like to see this changed, personally! |
[Veteran_Relyt Fekefer]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:55:00 -
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i think a great way to penalize shield extenders would be to have it actually extend the shields, increasing the shield hitbox size slightly |
[Veteran_Waruiko DUST]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 22:19:00 -
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Relyt Fekefer wrote:i think a great way to penalize shield extenders would be to have it actually extend the shields, increasing the shield hitbox size slightly
That's basically what happens in eve what with sig radius.
I think this could also be solved with a second set of rep/plate mods that gave extra armor or reps at a percent rather then a fixed value. |
[Veteran_Buzzwords]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 01:14:00 -
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most low tier suits seem to just favor shield tanking... why does the AMARR militia suit have 2 high slots but only 1 low slot? it's amarr, they are all ABOUT armor...
but when i look at higher tier suites i think it'll balance out. prototype assault is 3 hi and 4 low, and personally the dmg mods that compete with shields, are more tempting than the stamina mods that compete with armor.
i could see myself running an armor tank in the low slots with dmg mods in the highs, depending on how repair kits work when they're implemented |
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