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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
557
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Posted - 2015.02.21 12:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is talking about heavies vs heavies, so bear with it.
Firstly, all Sents mainly use HMGs, one of only two heavy weapons. These are of course projectile weapons.
All Sents get bonuses, but what makes them so unbalanced is that the Amarr and Gallente Sentinels get bonuses AGAINST Projectiles vs Armor, whereas Caldari and Minmatar do not get any bonuses against Projectiles whatsoever, just Hybrid/Laser. Now if there were Hybrid/Laser Heavy weapons (Gatling Laser anyone?), this would be a little more balanced.
But as it stands now, in a straight up sent fight, Gal/Amarr Sents will wreck the other two in no time at all.
Thoughts on possible balancing tweaks? Discuss
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
557
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Posted - 2015.02.21 13:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Edau Skir2 wrote:This is talking about heavies vs heavies, so bear with it.
Firstly, all Sents mainly use HMGs, one of only two heavy weapons. These are of course projectile weapons.
All Sents get bonuses, but what makes them so unbalanced is that the Amarr and Gallente Sentinels get bonuses AGAINST Projectiles vs Armor, whereas Caldari and Minmatar do not get any bonuses against Projectiles whatsoever, just Hybrid/Laser. Now if there were Hybrid/Laser Heavy weapons (Gatling Laser anyone?), this would be a little more balanced.
But as it stands now, in a straight up sent fight, Gal/Amarr Sents will wreck the other two in no time at all.
Thoughts on possible balancing tweaks? Discuss I believe your assessment is incomplete and not entirely accurate. Some parts of it are OK but your assessment of plasma/laser making it easier for shield suits to even the odds vs. Armor is ccounterintuitive. In my experience, Hmg is 50/50 between a calsent and amsent In who kills wwho because the HMG does 15% less to shields. But it really boils dow to who fires first.
But also bear in mind, that an Amarr/Gal sent at Dropsuit Level 5 gets a 10% Projectile damage reduction vs Armor. Plus as they are both Armor tanking suits, it's pretty much cancelling out the Proj bonus vs armor.
I'll explain again. I think adding Laser & Hybrid heavy weapons will definitely even the playing field. Not by races using their own weaponry, because that will never happen, players will use whatever they want to. But by allowing Minmatar and Caldari Sents to have a weapon that is as effective against Gal/Amarr as the HMG is now against Min/Cal.
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
557
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Posted - 2015.02.21 13:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
Arguing that "Gallente and Amarr Sentinels are unbalanced because the weapons that they are naturally strong against are not in the game" is very strange indeed.
Thats not my point at all, my point is that Gal and Amarr Sents have armor resists against the only viable heavy weapon for other Sents.
Put a Minmatar sent against am Amarr Sent, with the same health, the same damage, and the same level of suit skill, and the Amarr will win. That's what makes them unbalanced.
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
557
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Posted - 2015.02.21 13:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Caldari Sentinels and arguably the Minmatar as well, use shields as their main tank, so they have an innate 15% resistance against it.
Potentially, but with the current ScR issues, Armor tanking has become more common.
I mean, if the devs ever pay heed to the demands for Racial weapon parity, we'll no doubt have Heavy Laser and Rail weapons (Not Forge) soon anyway.
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
560
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Posted - 2015.02.21 15:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Edau Skir2 wrote:Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
Arguing that "Gallente and Amarr Sentinels are unbalanced because the weapons that they are naturally strong against are not in the game" is very strange indeed.
Thats not my point at all, my point is that Gal and Amarr Sents have armor resists against the only viable heavy weapon for other Sents. Put a Minmatar sent against am Amarr Sent, with the same health, the same damage, and the same level of suit skill, and the Amarr will win. That's what makes them unbalanced. And how does adding a weapon that Gallente and Amarr are more resistant to going to fix this? Lasers are +20/-20. Projectiles against Amarr work out to be -15/+0. Which is a better weapon to use? Blasters are +10/-10. HMG's are -15/+0. Which is better to use when Amarr have much more Armor than Shields? Put another way: "Even with the 15% or 10% Armor resistance against Projectiles, it is still a better way to kill the Armor focused Gallente and Amarr Sentinels than Laser Weapons or Blaster Weapons."
So, after you asked how adding new weapons will help, I said that's not my point at all.
So you then again ask me how they will help.
Same answer, that's not my point at all.
Plenty of people are giving good detailed answers both sides of the issue, read those.
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
560
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Posted - 2015.02.21 15:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Joel II X wrote:Caldari Sentinels and arguably the Minmatar as well, use shields as their main tank, so they have an innate 15% resistance against it. Believing that this is the balancing factor is ignorant. That innate resistance equates to about 10% or 6% resistance depending on which armour heavy you go up against (damage mods). The armour heavies also have shields that benefit from this resistance which is likely to not be contested by damage mods when going against shield heavies. That's not what ignorant means...? Armor heavies have around 400 shields, while the Caldari can reach up to what? Low 700s? That 300 makes a huge difference when going up against another HMG, so what is your point again?
His point is that the extra 300 shield that is resistant, is irrelevant next to the resistance you get for every point of armour Amarr/Gallente get.
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
560
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Posted - 2015.02.21 16:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Joel II X wrote:
I didn't even mention the resistance rate in my second point, just raw shield eHP. I don't know what you're trying to prove, but 10% more won't really do THAT much better against 300 raw shield HP. As for the 6%, I'm not quite sure.
I didn't take it as an insult. I just happen to see more shield heavies winning 1v1 against an armor heavy of both are same tier and fitted well.
If you have numbers that I can go on, by all means post them. Numbers don't lie. I'm just too lazy to do it myself through mobile.
Okay consider this assuming max skills: Amarr sentinel vs Caldari sentinel. Amarr sent 4 ferro fit: 450 shields (+15%) = 518 eHP 1080 armour (-15%) = 918 eHP Total eHP vs cal sent HMG = 1436 Cal sent 3 extender fit: 874 shields (+10%) = 961 eHP 487 armour (-35%) = 317 eHP Total eHP = 1278 eHP vs amarr sent HMG
God, imagine the eHP of the Amarr Sent if it used 4 Armor Plates instead of Ferro. I guess there'd have to adjustments for less mobility made but.... *whistle
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
560
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Posted - 2015.02.21 16:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Quit busting your heads, simple solution is limit the resistances to light weapons.
Lol no-ones busting anything, I'm quite enjoying this two-sided debate. I'm surprised no-one brought it up before, or did everyone just not notice? 
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
560
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Posted - 2015.02.21 16:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Edau Skir2 wrote:LUGMOS wrote:Quit busting your heads, simple solution is limit the resistances to light weapons. Lol no-ones busting anything, I'm quite enjoying this two-sided debate. I'm surprised no-one brought it up before, or did everyone just not notice? I noticed this a while ago but never bothered making a thread.
I'll probably get nova-shanked later for this, I've let their secret out the bag!
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
560
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Posted - 2015.02.21 16:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yeah, I imagine the non-Amarr purists never noticed these stats. I only noticed because I was looking at every Race's suit bonuses.
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
560
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Posted - 2015.02.21 18:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
VAHZZ wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Make more heavy weapons This.
Why do you think that?
Quite a few people in here disagree, but I'm with you on this
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
562
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Posted - 2015.02.21 22:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Darken-Soul wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Darken-Soul wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:But max caldari (with necessary cores plus armor skills all at 5) is comparable in utility to the amsent, easily able to trade HMG fire for HMG fire without any feeling of futility. You probably feel this way because 90% of pub heavies are bad. The amarr sentinel has more eHP than the cal sent and ideally deals more damage. The amarr sent is superior in 1v1, the cal sent is useful for brawling with already low on HP amarr sentinels then running away to regen. Slap 3 damage mods on cal sentinel and a kincat. Use six kin. It kills everything. Over heat isn't an issue unless you fight 4 or more targets. Flux are nice but not needed Lol any fit works in pubs, I'm speaking about competitive fits. Lol. Competitive
As in FW and PC, where winning matters
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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Edau Skir2
Nefantar Raiders
562
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Posted - 2015.02.21 22:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Darken-Soul wrote:To who?
The people playing it?
I don't know about you, but I definitely don't want to grind up to 100k lp by getting 295 a match.
Nor would want to lose a district in PC.
Come on, that crap is obvious.
Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
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