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Foundation Seldon
Heaven's Lost Property
856
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Posted - 2015.02.14 17:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
We've tried the lower flight ceiling in earlier iterations of the game, it sucks. It makes the already hilariously fragile Dropship more fragile. This entire initiative of yours is trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to better engage enemy dropships then fit turrets and run with gunners or pack a sentinel suit and run a forge. Alternatively use the natural cover around the map (Redline, Buildings) to keep yourself safe. Dropship gets bored, flies away, and you can find a better spot to engage it.
Until we get to a point where maps are designed to be much larger, or to where individual infantry can request transport and delivery areas, or to where you can't just teleport anywhere on the map anyway with an uplink, or to where I can't just call in an Onikuma to get my transport needs done much more easily there will almost never be a "need" for a transport focused role in this game. This is why you can count on one hand the number of Myrons or Grimsnes you'll see on any given day. If the ADS is acting like a Gunship this is because it IS a gunship and was DESIGNED to be a gunship. Accept it.
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Foundation Seldon
Heaven's Lost Property
857
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Posted - 2015.02.14 17:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:We've tried the lower flight ceiling in earlier iterations of the game, it sucks. It makes the already hilariously fragile Dropship more fragile. This entire initiative of yours is trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to better engage enemy dropships then fit turrets and run with gunners or pack a sentinel suit and run a forge. Alternatively use the natural cover around the map (Redline, Buildings) to keep yourself safe. Dropship gets bored, flies away, and you can find a better spot to engage it.
Until we get to a point where maps are designed to be much larger, or to where individual infantry can request transport and delivery areas, or to where you can't just teleport anywhere on the map anyway with an uplink, or to where I can't just call in an Onikuma to get my transport needs done much more easily there will almost never be a "need" for a transport focused role in this game. This is why you can count on one hand the number of Myrons or Grimsnes you'll see on any given day. If the ADS is acting like a Gunship this is because it IS a gunship and was DESIGNED to be a gunship. Accept it. I've already covered why those things don't work in a balanced situation, and I'm not ******* doing it again. Maps balance is a thing to be addressed, that is true. That still doesn't Justify the ADS acting as a Gunship. Broken **** doesn't call for broken **** to balance it. That just leads to more broken ****. Are you saying that broken **** needs to stay in the game? And lastly, I've pretty much suggested all of these things, and it's primary function is to transport. You deal with it..
To "address" map balance you'd have to redesign the majority of the maps in the game. It's not a feasible solution to the overarching problem the game has with transport roles or transport centered vehicles being pointless. There's nothing wrong or inherently broken about an ADS being a Gunship.
And as I said to you in the last thread, the primary function of the Assault Dropship is not something that's up to you to decide and if the in game description of the ADS is anything to go by ...
"The Assault Class (Dropship) is a low level aerial attack craft. Its light frame makes it highly maneuverable while the front mounted pilot controlled turret gives it a significant advantage in aerial engagements"
They're provably NOT intended to be a primarily transport focused vehicle. They are meant to kill people, they have a bonus to the power of their turret in order to kill people better. That is what they accomplish.
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Foundation Seldon
Heaven's Lost Property
857
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Posted - 2015.02.14 18:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:We've tried the lower flight ceiling in earlier iterations of the game, it sucks. It makes the already hilariously fragile Dropship more fragile. This entire initiative of yours is trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to better engage enemy dropships then fit turrets and run with gunners or pack a sentinel suit and run a forge. Alternatively use the natural cover around the map (Redline, Buildings) to keep yourself safe. Dropship gets bored, flies away, and you can find a better spot to engage it.
Until we get to a point where maps are designed to be much larger, or to where individual infantry can request transport and delivery areas, or to where you can't just teleport anywhere on the map anyway with an uplink, or to where I can't just call in an Onikuma to get my transport needs done much more easily there will almost never be a "need" for a transport focused role in this game. This is why you can count on one hand the number of Myrons or Grimsnes you'll see on any given day. If the ADS is acting like a Gunship this is because it IS a gunship and was DESIGNED to be a gunship. Accept it. I've already covered why those things don't work in a balanced situation, and I'm not ******* doing it again. Maps balance is a thing to be addressed, that is true. That still doesn't Justify the ADS acting as a Gunship. Broken **** doesn't call for broken **** to balance it. That just leads to more broken ****. Are you saying that broken **** needs to stay in the game? And lastly, I've pretty much suggested all of these things, and it's primary function is to transport. You deal with it.. To "address" map balance you'd have to redesign the majority of the maps in the game. It's not a feasible solution to the overarching problem the game has with transport roles or transport centered vehicles being pointless. There's nothing wrong or inherently broken about an ADS being a Gunship. And as I said to you in the last thread, the primary function of the Assault Dropship is not something that's up to you to decide and if the in game description of the ADS is anything to go by ... "The Assault Class (Dropship) is a low level aerial attack craft. Its light frame makes it highly maneuverable while the front mounted pilot controlled turret gives it a significant advantage in aerial engagements" They're provably NOT intended to be a primarily transport focused vehicle. They are meant to kill people, they have a bonus to the power of their turret in order to kill people better. That is what they accomplish. Yes it is. A Dropship is made for TRANSPORT. If it's preforming like a Gunship, and nothing like a DS, then it's broken. You are focusing WAY too much on the word Assault. None of the descriptions are something to go by. Gal Logis by that logic would have repping bonuses. Also, I see nothing in that about easily attacking HAV's. That desc. has zip to do with being a Gunship, more so being a pseudo fighter. Also, the hing was intended to be made as a what I suggested: DS that can give support fire after dropping off a smaller passenger size.
We should be gauging whether or not something is broken by their overall effect on the battlefield. The ADS in its current state, with the strength of AV and the alternate means Tanks have of taking them out (aka every moment that the Dropship's full attention isn't on them and when they're not hovering right above them) would mean that they're not broken. The descriptions, at the very least, give insight on the initial intended direction of any suit, item or vehicle. CCP intended the ADS to be an air based attack vehicle and, unlike the Gal Logi, have a skill bonus that further proves that that's direction that they wanted to take with it. If they weren't meant to kill people they wouldn't have a skill bonus geared towards being more proficient at killing people.
"If it's performing like a Gunship, and nothing like a DS, then it's broken."
No. This only means that it's a Gunship. There's nothing wrong with a Dropship being a Gunship because currently we don't have a separate dedicated model for such a vehicle. It fills a niche in this game that otherwise wouldn't exist. There was once a time where CCP had grand plans for the future of Dust 514; MAVs, Racial Vehicles, Fighters, 0G combat, more weapons - then **** happened and they recolored the DS to fill a role for pilots that hadn't existed previously.
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Foundation Seldon
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
858
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Posted - 2015.02.14 20:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
You're getting hooked on like purely arbitrary things. Who cares if its in the Dropship tree? Would you be satisfied if they renamed the Dropship "Medium Aerial Vehicle" and renamed the ADS "Assault Aerial Vehicle?" It's in the Dropship tree because they reused the same exact model and stuck a gun on the front because they couldn't be bothered to implement their other planned vehicles into the game. It's an "ASSAULT" Dropship because it's meant to blow **** up. Nothing about the skill, its description, or anything CCP has ever said has lead anyone to believe that they were meant to fit within Godin's super specific niche of "occasional aerial support transport craft meant to lightly tap targets until a tank looks up and blows it into the stratosphere".
Assault Dropships, Gunships, Transport vehicles, whatever you call them if you can stick a gun on them they're meant to be used to kill people.
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Foundation Seldon
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
858
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Posted - 2015.02.14 20:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:You're getting hooked on like purely arbitrary things. Who cares if its in the Dropship tree? Would you be satisfied if they renamed the Dropship "Medium Aerial Vehicle" and renamed the ADS "Assault Aerial Vehicle?" It's in the Dropship tree because they reused the same exact model and stuck a gun on the front because they couldn't be bothered to implement their other planned vehicles into the game. It's an "ASSAULT" Dropship because it's meant to blow **** up. Nothing about the skill, its description, or anything CCP has ever said has lead anyone to believe that they were meant to fit within Godin's super specific niche of "occasional aerial support transport craft meant to lightly tap targets until a tank looks up and blows it into the stratosphere".
Assault Dropships, Gunships, Transport vehicles, whatever you call them if you can stick a gun on them they're meant to be used to kill people. By that logic, yuo're limiting the HAV to kill things, because it has a gun on it. Also by that logic, a Plasma Rifle should be able to kill anything.
What else can the HAV do? Fundamentally its power is to kill things, it doesn't kill every target as easily thanks to the Large Turret nerf but they can still get by with what they've got. You can kill installations, other vehicles, and infantry.
Having a role based on killing things doesn't mean everything can be killed. The Plasma Rifle comparison doesn't fly.
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Foundation Seldon
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
858
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Posted - 2015.02.14 21:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Foundation Seldon wrote:You're getting hooked on like purely arbitrary things. Who cares if its in the Dropship tree? Would you be satisfied if they renamed the Dropship "Medium Aerial Vehicle" and renamed the ADS "Assault Aerial Vehicle?" It's in the Dropship tree because they reused the same exact model and stuck a gun on the front because they couldn't be bothered to implement their other planned vehicles into the game. It's an "ASSAULT" Dropship because it's meant to blow **** up. Nothing about the skill, its description, or anything CCP has ever said has lead anyone to believe that they were meant to fit within Godin's super specific niche of "occasional aerial support transport craft meant to lightly tap targets until a tank looks up and blows it into the stratosphere".
Assault Dropships, Gunships, Transport vehicles, whatever you call them if you can stick a gun on them they're meant to be used to kill people. By that logic, yuo're limiting the HAV to kill things, because it has a gun on it. Also by that logic, a Plasma Rifle should be able to kill anything. What else can the HAV do? Fundamentally its power is to kill things, it doesn't kill every target as easily thanks to the Large Turret nerf but they can still get by with what they've got. You can kill installations, other vehicles, and infantry. Having a role based on killing things doesn't mean everything can be killed. The Plasma Rifle comparison doesn't fly. You said that if it has a gun on it, it should be able to kill people. Well, a HAV is not a person, yet for some reaosn you want to apply that same logic to a HAV, and therefore, your reply is bullshit.
Lol, of all the things to latch on to. It really seems like you've run out of things to back up your case with.
The takeaways from this and your previous thread -
Godin's argument -
ADS are primarily transport and shouldn't be blowing **** up.
ADS has an overwhelming advantage against Tanks thanks to turret elevation and the inability to respond at close range.
My argument -
The Assault Dropship has guns on it. These guns do their job of blowing **** up.
The Skill and Description of the ADS support the intended role of said ship to be blowing **** up.
Tanks have counter measures in the form of making use of map cover, using turrets, using unpredictable movement patterns or equipping Forges on a powerful suit.
The time taken for an ADS to kill a tank thanks to the skill nerf gives a tanker ample time to respond - they're not broken.
Don't take this so personally, just because I think your idea of arbitrarily limiting what the ADS is and isn't capable of is bad doesn't mean I think you're bad. I just fundamentally disagree with you.
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