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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4931
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Posted - 2015.02.12 17:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
The thing is the Caldari suits are really not all that unique, at proto they try to justify having 3 equipment in exchange for an extra low slot, but in reality their CPU is so ****** that slot is typically filled with a Co-Processor, so it's a 'lost slot' anyways.
What are your thoughts on simply matching the slot layout between Logistics and Assault? I feel the Assault progression is actually pretty solid and I think it makes sense that suits within the same frame would have similar if not identical slot layouts. Amarr would maintain its sidearm in exchange for an equipment, but all other logis (Caldari included) would max out at 4 equipment and no sidearm.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4931
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Posted - 2015.02.12 18:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:The thing is the Caldari suits are really not all that unique, at proto they try to justify having 3 equipment in exchange for an extra low slot, but in reality their CPU is so ****** that slot is typically filled with a Co-Processor, so it's a 'lost slot' anyways.
What are your thoughts on simply matching the slot layout between Logistics and Assault? I feel the Assault progression is actually pretty solid and I think it makes sense that suits within the same frame would have similar if not identical slot layouts. Amarr would maintain its sidearm in exchange for an equipment, but all other logis (Caldari included) would max out at 4 equipment and no sidearm. I think that would also be fine for the caldari suits, but boring. It would also be fine if gallente and Minmatar suits were punished somehow for their equipment slots(lose a grenade, lose cpu/pg, what have you.), or if all the suits had the same PG and CPU. I kind of miss the balanced layout for the Amarr. The description of a balanced layout still exists for the Amarr Assault.
Well I'll admit I dont run Caldari Logi, I just talk with a number of people who do and they all say that the CPU is so bad (even with max skills) that almost always that 4th low is being used for a Co-Processor, so it really can't be counted as a 'bonus' for the suit because its being used to counteract an imbalanced deficiency in the resources.
I think it's fine if you want to take an equipment away from the Cal Logi in echange for something else, but that 4th low slot is not a sufficient tradeoff, not to mention I think it just leads to balancing issues. I could see them going with a 5/3 layout, 3 equipment, and a sidearm for the Cal Logi (so similar to the Amarr Logi but shield tanked instead of armored)
I'm not really sure why you feel they need to be punished for having a 4th equipment when they already don't have a sidearm? A sidearm for an equipment slot seems like a fair and reasonable tradeoff. Also all having the same CPU/PG would be really bad, as they're all tanked differently and certain tanking styles use different ratios of PG and CPU.
And I hate to argue lore, but the whole idea of a balanced layout and Shield/armor ratio for Amarr was fundamentally flawed from the start. Amarr are meant to be armor buffer tankers and pretty much ignore their shields. If anyone should have the balanced slot layout, it's the Minmatar, which are typically known for being able to either shield or armor tank given the fit.
Regardless I still feel that for the slots themselves, matching them to the Assault (The Proto Logis are actually fairly close to Assaults as-is, its the lower tiers that are FUBAR) seems like a really balanced and fair progression through the tiers.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4935
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote: I'm not really sure why you feel they need to be punished for having a 4th equipment when they already don't have a sidearm? A sidearm for an equipment slot seems like a fair and reasonable tradeoff. Also all having the same CPU/PG would be really bad, as they're all tanked differently and certain tanking styles use different ratios of PG and CPU.
I guess most people consider four equipment at the prototype tier to be normal, but I consider three to be normal. From this point of view, the Caldari gain a module slot at the cost of CPU, the Amarr gain a sidearm at the cost of PG and a module slot(I admit the PG penalty isn't as bas as it used to be.), and the Minmatar and Gallente gain an equipment slot at the cost of nothing. That is why I feel they should be punished. Not punishing any of them would also be agreeable.
Well in the end it's basically the same thing really.
If all Logis naturally have 3 slots
Amarr +1 Sidearm +0 Equipment Everything else +0 Sidearms +1 Equipment
or if all Logis naturally have 4 slots Amarr +1 Sidearm -1 Equipment Everything else +0 Sidearms +0 Equipment
Have you by chance checked out Cross Atu's Threadnaught on Logistics/Support? His proposals are pretty legit.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4942
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Posted - 2015.02.12 21:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote: Well in the end it's basically the same thing really.
If all Logis naturally have 3 slots
Amarr +1 Sidearm +0 Equipment Everything else +0 Sidearms +1 Equipment
or if all Logis naturally have 4 slots Amarr +1 Sidearm -1 Equipment Everything else +0 Sidearms +0 Equipment
Have you by chance checked out Cross Atu's Threadnaught on Logistics/Support? His proposals are pretty legit.
As one who plays with amarr logistics suits, I would also prefer another module slot at the prototype tier over an equipment slot, so I wonder why the equipment slot is simultaneously preferable for the caldari suit. What are your thoughts on that? I may or may not have read the "threadnaught." Probably not. I don't remember it.
The problem is that it's very difficult to guage the relative usefulness of an additional fitting slot and I've found that even a single slot can make a world of difference, or very little at all. That being said I'm concerned about trying to balance equipment vs fitting slots.
I mean this is totally my opinion, but I really don't want to have logis 'trading' an additional fitting for equipment, I think it just causes issues. I mean if you think about it...a slot works 100% of the time, it's always on, whereas equipment has to be used. So you're trading something that has partial usefulness for something that had constant usefulness...and that dichotomy just makes me dislike the idea.
I much prefer the Sidearm or Equipment tradeoff, it feels more natural to me but that's just my personal opinion. I will say however that at the very least all Logistics should have 3 slots minimum at all tiers, so no matter what they have more than a Scout. If certain ones get 4 that's fine, but imo even Standard Amarr/Caldari Logi should start off with 3 equipment.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4943
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Posted - 2015.02.12 21:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Do NOT parrallel Logi slot progression to Assaults.
Care to elaborate as to why you feel that way?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4951
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Posted - 2015.02.12 22:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote: Yes, I'm aware that a couple patches back (as part of the greater overhaul) Assault frames were given their Logis layouts at Proto. My issue making that scheme the uniform standard down the line is to assist in limiting the use of the suit (logis) by slayers, for slaying. Specifically by denying those individuals the ease of simply copying over to a Logi frame whatever Assault mod layout they've grown accustomed to using. Yes, at Proto they can now. But that doesn't mean that at lower levels they should. Especially if some of the buffs we've proposed in Cross' Logistics thread come to be.
Me personally, I've had no issue in learning my Logi suits' strengths/weaknesses in fitting or use with the layouts as they've been, so as far how I'd prefer to see dev time spent on fixing Logis, tying slot progression to Assaults further is a very low priority to me.
That logic is flawed though, because if Prototype Logistics are not a "Slayer Logi" problem currently, normalizing lower tiers will not turn them into "slayer Logis" either. This isn't a matter of nerfing or buffing, it's making the progression actually make sense, rather than a random jumble of slots that look like some RNG spat out.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4951
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Posted - 2015.02.12 22:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Actually I believe Amarr logis only have 4 lows at proto, making only 7 mod slots. This follows the old Amarr assault trend of having less slots. It was agreed that this was silly and Amarr assaults got the same total slots as the rest. The same fix needs to be done to the proto Amarr logi.
As for slot progression, I would be open to different slot layouts to assaults, but I don't see why logis should ever have less mod slots than their assault counterpart, and they should certainly have equal total slots between races at the same tier.
Ah you're right, Amarr has a 3/4 layout at proto for.....no discernible reason.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4951
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Posted - 2015.02.12 23:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
But should variation between roles not be defined by its ability to fit the essentials and more so based around the Role bonuses to define the role?
Even if you don't like the concept of matching the Logistics to the Assault....fine, that's a difference in opinion. But can we at least agree that the progression within the Logistics suits needs better consistency?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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