|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
222
   |
Posted - 2015.02.11 04:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:This will create a market for middlemen, friends trading stuff they don't want and the ability to send to CEO, who distributes based on need for PC.
Better ways to trade are obviously known. They either depend on both being on the server for handshake, send item claim in email, which requires major backend work, or auction houses which is a huge undertaking.
This simple method allows trading to happen, at all and I would rather spend a part of our resources on other features. Agreed 100%. Simple trading should be simple. Reputable middle men will come forward to satisfy demand. In the mean time, if you don't trust a merc, then don't trade with that merc.
As a middleman, I'd try to simplify pricing by coming up with a straight-forward convention for pricing. My first thoughts on the subject:
I'd probably operate in lots that would make price calculations easy, i.e. stacks of 100. I'd try to buy up a reasonable inventory based on an easy to calculate discount from the normal NPC vendor prices. If the best price players can get for their gear, with Jara and a moderate loyalty rank is about 40% of the NPC vendor prices, I'd probably aim to buy gear from players at 60% and sell it at 80% of NPC vendor value.
So if a proto weapon usually costs 47,220 isk, a stack of 100 would be 4,722,000 from the NPC vendor. So I'd offer to buy stacks for 60%, or 2,833,200 isk, and try to sell them for 3,777,600 isk.
If players wouldn't usually be able to sell that gear for more than about 40%, they'd get an extra 944,000 isk. I'd make about that much, and buyers would get a discount of about that much, compared to buying from the NPC vendors.
I'd try to adjust those percentages (my paying 60% and selling for 80% of NPC price) pretty quickly at first, based on the flow of inventory. Raising the percentages for things I have difficulty keeping in stock, lowering them for items I wind up overstocking. Thoughts? Questions? Alternative proposals?
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
228
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 02:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Balistyc Farshot wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:... Alternative proposals? Lets put together some rules to help out players who aren't aware of how this works out. 1. Don't send someone you don't trust isk for an item you haven't seen. If you do that then let me tell you about some Saudi Gold I can get for $100 you just need to mail to a PO Box. I would recommend half up front and half upon receipt. 2. Get some of the isk first! This is the first rule of the oldest profession. 3. If you get ripped off, post it on the forums and be aware some people will be making alts to rip people off. We should start a page of known offenders. 4. GYN sounds like a salesman. We should establish that well known Corps backing a player proposing a sale should be a must. That way the bigger corps can boot the players who are alts and stealing. Like requiring a license to sell stock. 5 Don't cry wolf on someone for their reputation unless you know for a fact you got ripped off. 6. CCP - You need to be ready to ban some accounts if people ripping off other people gets out of hand. Or just take their isk and distribute it. 7. CCP - We also need to be able to see all the alts of any one PSN account. Why not make a page like the corp tracking page to give us that information. I may be ignorant to this already existing. Please add as needed.
I wouldn't be willing to operate that way.
With respect to # 1 and 2, people selling me gear have to send the gear to me before I pay them. People buying gear from me have to pay me first. Full payment, not half before/half after delivery.
The reason is simple. If I'm going to stay in business, I can't run around scamming people. If I use any other procedure, some portion of my customers will almost certainly rip me off, which is a cost I'm not willing to bear.
With respect to #3, tracking known scammers doesn't work. As soon as their notoriety becomes an impediment, they create a new scamming account. Just play Eve Online in a major trade hub, and see how long it takes you to learn to ignore the scammers in local chat, instead of making any active effort to counter them, like blocking them or posting their identities somewhere. The other side of that coin is much easier to manage: develop people with good reputations and track records for honoring their financial obligations. Make sure the people who are reputable escrows or trade partners are well known. Its a lot easier than trying to make scammers well known.
With respect to #4, I actually cringed when I read that. I am not a salesman. I'm pretty much the opposite of a salesman.
With respect to #5, 6, and 7, I don't believe CCP is going to lift a finger to stop players from ripping off other players with respect to entirely-in-game items or currency. That's a part of CCP's thing: attracting every budding psychopath out to ruin someone else's day in a game. I'd only expect CCP to enforce a transaction if it could undermine their real world profits, i.e. people trying to scam things that sell for real money outside the game, like game codes. Character sales and exchanges also involve real world money and income for CCP, so they'll enforce/punish in relation to those.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
229
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 13:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
dy5t0pia wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
With respect to # 1 and 2, people selling me gear have to send the gear to me before I pay them. People buying gear from me have to pay me first. Full payment, not half before/half after delivery.
So let me get this straight...you want people to fork over their items BEFORE you fork over the cash. But when it comes to you forking over items you want the ISK first!? I predict no one trading with you in the future... 
Those are precisely the terms on which I've operated the currency exchange between Eve and Dust for more than a year. If you follow that link in my signature line, you can read the entire discussion that led to that procedure, including the circumstances where I considered making an exception.
Just like the currency exchange though, I don't think there are going to be enough people acting as reliable middlemen to be more interested in competing with each other rather than working more like a cooperative. I don't mean that as much in the sense of price collusion as infrequent cooperation, to cover each other's shortages while making price adjustments to avoid shortages. If there aren't enough middlemen, we can't have a robust market. What are the chances of getting better market tools if "simple trading" dies on the table for lack of use?
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
229
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 14:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Simple Trading as I define it is
go to item in assets
press X
send item to Contact (not player)
select qty
send
are you sure
yes
I can't believe I didn't think to ask this sooner: Can the consequences of the above procedure be delivery of the selected quantity of items AND an EVE mail from the sender to the receiver saying something similarly simple " _(quantity)_ of _(item)_ sent."
If I have to track changes in my assets to know what people have sent me, that's going to be a colossal pain in the rear for anyone trying to function as a middleman.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
231
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 23:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Balistyc Farshot wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:Balistyc Farshot wrote:... I would recommend half up front and half upon receipt. ... ...The reason is simple. If I'm going to stay in business, I can't run around scamming people. If I use any other procedure, some portion of my customers will almost certainly rip me off, which is a cost I'm not willing to bear. .... I note that you didn't defend that recommendation. Are you withdrawing it? Do you need additional discussion to understand it as an invitation for scammers to put middlemen out of business?
Balistyc Farshot wrote: So EVE has a system where I can track you down and make your life hell after you scam me. It really doesn't. Every time I visit Jita, Dodixie, Rens, there's a whole new crop of scammers. Do you have any experience with successfully making even a single scammer's life hell? Its a nice idea, but my impression is that scammers use disposable characters. It seems unlikely that you or anyone is going to punish them. However, by all means, make your scammer lists. If you keep even a single newbie from getting scammed, I'll praise your effort as having been totally worth whatever time you spent on it. On the other hand, if you find your efforts seem to be wasted, try to remember that I warned you, and advised you where your efforts could be better spent.
Can we agree that its easier to keep track of a small number of trusted escrows than a large perpetually changing pool of scammers? That's the main point I wanted to make in response to your proposal.
Balistyc Farshot wrote:You are standing here as the stock broker and saying, we don't really need an FCC or better business bureau. Trust me, I will take your money and items where they need to go.
If you plan on making money, expect to put money into the game. If you don't anti up you can't play. I would like to see a district holding corp back the middle man. If we think you are scamming, we roll your district. You have skin in the game just like us. We just take our payment in clone packs.
BTW - This is me explaining as a community that trust is going to be hard to establish day 1 if you guys don't put yourselves out there. I find it odd that instead of addressing ideas directly, you feel the need to characterize me as a "salesman" or "stock broker" or mischaracterize what I've written. I don't feel the need to insult you in the process of disagreeing with you.
Can you cite an example of an in game corporation (many individuals, as opposed to a single individual with several alts) functioning as a trusted escrow? A "trusted" corporation seems like an opportunity to diffuse responsibility, rather than increasing reliability.
I don't suppose you actually followed the link in my sig, so I'll make it easier. This is the page reviewing the first year of my currency exchange's operation. I'm happy to discuss why I've chosen to operate this way, if you have any questions that aren't addressed in that thread. If you'd like to continue addressing the ideas you've raised (partial payments, scammer lists, corporate backing, and CCP enforcement) I'm happy to do that too.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
233
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 14:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lavallois Nash wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:I can't believe I didn't think to ask this sooner: Can the consequences of the above procedure be delivery of the selected quantity of items AND an automated EVE-mail from the sender to the receiver saying something similarly simple " _(quantity)_ of _(item)_ sent."
If I have to track changes in my assets to know what people have sent me, that's going to be a colossal pain in the rear for anyone trying to function as a middleman. This is actually one of my biggest headaches in ironing out how im going to move into being a merchant. I have a KB/M, so i can send out customized receipts with ease. But people sending to me, if they have a controller, is going to be hassle to make me a minimum listed receipt with the items and quantities sent. An auto generate like that would be a major lifesaver. +1 +1 !! lol.
Without that feature, open advertising and rates won't be possible. If player A and player B both claim to have sent me a stack of x, but there's no way for me to tell which one sent the stack that increased my inventory, I can't have an open advertisement that anyone can accept. Every transfer would require prior eve-mail and delivery before anyone else could send the same item. Otherwise there's no way to tell who to pay.
What if your inventory for x goes up by 100 but both player A and player B claim to have sent you 100 of x? If there's no way to resolve that, the amount of work required to be a middleman will be massive and trade will be slow.
Would the code to automate an evemail (which I get every time someone applies OR WITHDRAWS an application to join my corp...) be at all difficult to implement for trades.. or "simple gifting" if that's more accurate?
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
|
|
|
| |
|