I'll open the discussion with a few points:

1: Light weapon AV values are all over the map. Swarms are almost 400 DPS ahead of the IAFG and the PLC is one of the lowest applied DPS weapons in DUST.

2: Heavy weaponare hamstrung by poor damage mods which add nothing to TTK in most cases.

3: Standard and breach forge guns are inferior in application to the Assault Forge Gun in almost every possible way and are poor choices for AV.

4: Lacking Racial parity in both turrets and infantry AV is creating poor interactions allowing one weapon or one chassis to always be clearly superior.

5: Heavy missile turret burst DPS negates any utility armor vehicles might otherwise have.

6: The railgun maintains the highest alpha, range and sustained DPS among vehicle turrets.

7: the blaster has the worst range, alpha and sustained DPS of all the heavy turrets. It's dispersion is too wide to be of much utility vs. Infantry. Blasters are the worst choice for a heavy turret in all situations.

I am quite sure there are more issues.

Also where there is a good balance struck we need to look at. While we're fixing what is wrong let's not overlook or lose what is right.

Let me clarify something:

This thread is DIRECTLY related to Rattati's bring back the HAVs initiative.

It is not a gripe thread.

It is not a general complaint thread.

It is not in relation to anything but the HAV thread.

A statement that "swarms will be difficult to balance around with the HAVs because (insert numbers here) this is what I think might sosolve the problem." Is perfectly applicable.

Generically saying "too much range" or "no skill" Are not helpful.

this is not a gripe at the devs thread.

This is us providing actionable information to aid ratrati and insure that the HAVs will neither be invulnerable to enemy infantry AV and turrets, nor will they be easy meat.

I will not be adding any complaint posts to the OP. Only watch points backed by numbers.

again. This is NOT a gripe thread.

This is an information consolidation thread.

If we can't play nice I'll give my advice without your help.

But I'd much rather see cooperation.

The points will be expanded as the HAV rebalance progresses and new things come to light.

Lazer your input is neither wanted or needed unless you have something useful to add.

Stop trying to push me out of the process. I'm not going anywhere.

The point. It has flown over your head.

Quit trying to get vehicles buffed and AV gimped.

Further this is not solely a thread for infantry AV.

Turrets are rather important as well I think.

I could be wrong.

Alright can we stop arguing for the sake of AV balance? Don't make this thread become another waste full of complaints. Please? There will never be balance if we cannot even balance ourselves between reason, emotion, and logic.

This thread is to help balance, if you have a problem make a logical and professional response.

Or you'll always be complaining. No one wants to help a tyrant or a cold hearted person.

Lazer grow up and quit trying to derail ythreads.

You saying this thread is useless Isn't useful feedback.

Rattati said to go ahead and pull the AV data together which I am doing.

I really have zero interest in your opinion on the matter.

If you have numbers and real feedback great. If not, I will pretty much ignore your lack of input from here on out.

Your usual tactic of spamming negative feedback until the OP gives up and the thread dies will not work.

Thanks, reading it as i type

Laser you have a point, but forcing your opinion / being negative takes away the meaning. Humanity sees negative before positive (i can do 1000 good, but 1 bad will take it all away), it's up to you how you want people to see your posts. Yknow what i mean?

Breach is not a viable AV weapon by itself.

Heavy mods weren't rebuffed solely because of the HMG. Rattati mentioned that once.

I should have clarified and said single shot alpha for rails.

The burst DPS of the missile turret is beyond excessive. There's no other weapon that can hit 3000+ DPS.

And I have yet to encounter any situation in my madrugar where a rail hasn't been the superior option to the blaster to date.

Right now the rail is the best all round weapon for heavy turrets.

Finally the dispersion for blasters vs. Infantry is horrendous.

All of my OP assertions are tested in game and crosschecked with numbers.

the problem with the missile turret is the high adds vs. armor tanks. You can get close and shotgun an armor tank, a point you have made before and I have experienced firsthand. And the Swarm Launcher from uprising doing 3k a shot ticked me off righteously. It made running a forge gun the idiot option, because easy street was a couple million SP away.

Rails being highest single shot Alpha and longest range should have the lowest DPS out of all of the turrets.

If Missiles were more between rails and blasters for efficacy we could make a case for the projectiles moving faster so you could hit the targets more accurately further out than a blaster can clip optimally.

My problems with heavy turrets are that the Railgun is hands down the most efficient in all situations, and is more likely to kill infantry in blaster optimal than the blaster, and the missile turret can blap any armor tank you can field because 3,000+ DPS not including damage mods, skills or the profile bonus vs. armor.

Are there highly skilled blastermobile drivers? Yes, and my hat's off to you.

However, until the heavy turrets conform to the standard progression of High alpha = Lower DPS and High DPS meaning lower alpha across the board, HAV vs. HAV fights are going to remain the short, brutal affairs better reserved for those charming times when a scout meets a sentinel.