DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] HAV Hull Progression

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Vell0cet wrote:

Thanks for your response. The existing stamina system has been designed to integrate with modules, to accept modifiers from modules, and can accommodate large drops in the values based on actions in-game (when you jump). It fills all of the existing needs for a capacitor system. They could use a simple linear regeneration function to start, and tweak the function later, or call up the guys in Iceland and ask for the function they're using for EVE. In the code, the class interface would almost certainly look very similar to a capacitor system. This is simply based on my own experience as a hobbyist programmer. I really don't think it's as major of an undertaking as you believe it to be. Of course there could be performance challenges, and bugs that would need to be resolved, that's likely where the bulk of the development time would be spent. Things always take longer than they appear, so you're right that it could be more involved than I believe it to be.

As far as trashing the data, it comes down to whether engagements are designed to be very short (as they are now) or much longer. That's a major deal. I was somewhat hyperbolic with the trash everything comment, and you're right about the skill tree being a mess, but damage, hp, hp regen, and even speeds would all be dramatically different if designed for a short fight or a long fight. You really would have to almost start from scratch again.

Code....doesn't work like that. Yes stamina accepts modifiers from skills and modules, that much is easy, but you still have to code in how activation costs of modules, weapon useage, ect. Im not saying you can't use existing code, but theres a lot more to it than what you're describing, and as far as I know there are exactly 0 dedicated programmers working on Dust. And development of that nature is borrowed from the Legion team. Also linear regeneration is kinda bad because there would be no middle ground in cap stable/non stable. Linear Rechage would mean that Cap Stable = 100% capacitor all the time which can be problematic if you ever want to have some proper EWAR...but that's not really important at this point.

And again I don't see how the length of battles for Duration/Cooldown would differ from a Capacitor system....not should they differ. A module that has to cool down for 90 seconds and runs for 30 is simply a 3:1 Cap Recharge/Activation Cost ratio. HP and rate of recovery wouldn't change, nor would the effective activation cost of the module. The only difference is that available activation time and total cap capacity are pooled instead of per module. But even then if there were issues, you can maintain the same level of module performance and balance them entirely around cap cost and not disrupting previous balance effort.


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Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2761	Posted - 2015.01.24 07:39:00 - [1] - Quote Rattati, are capacitors completely off the table? Adding capacitors and real Ewar (e.g. Webs, neuts, tracking disrupters) would solve so many of the balancing problems with vehicles and AV. You could for example brick the thing to hell, but you'd be ungodly slow and have little cap to run speed mods if you got into trouble. Or you could fit for cap regen and fit a repper that could run constantly, making you very strong in 1 v 1, but very vulnerable to burst alpha damage. Overall, with the ability to cripple vehicles through Ewar, you open up opportunities for fights to take longer, which is more strategic, satisfying, and fun gameplay. Capacitors should be the centerpiece of a vehicle overhaul. It provides many additional balancing vectors that only affect survivalbility indirectly. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2761	Posted - 2015.01.26 18:49:00 - [2] - Quote I see 2 main arguments against capacitors here. A. Capacitors are worse than what we have now and B. capacitors are indeed better, BUT itGÇÖs too much work/unrealistic to add right now so we should wait. In response to A. I would argue that capacitors are critical for several reasons. 1. Capacitors are actually easier to manage than multiple modules with long cooldowns that simulate capacitors. By having to keep track of multiple long cooldowns and not having access to those while on cooldown, vehicle gameplay is very rigid. Basically the existing system is like having multiple independent capacitors, instead of a single capacitor to manage. With one capacitor, you can use your modules on demand (as long as your cap holds out) instead of having an all-or-nothing system. 2. Because the existing system essentially imitates multiple, independent capacitors, there are several problems. For one thing, adding an active module effectively gives you a deeper cap pool. For example a triple rep ship in EVE is extremely rare, because it will suck the cap dry very quickly. In Dust, you can't have active reps because each rep has itGÇÖs own GÇ£cap pool.GÇ¥ In order to make this reasonable, the amount repaired has been radically altered from equivalent modules in EVE. 3. The results of all of this is that combat feels very shallow. You have a big, expensive toy that can get melted pretty quickly when active modules are down, but is fairly godly when theyGÇÖre running. ItGÇÖs a bad design that makes vehicles feel, paradoxically, both overpowered and underpowered at the same time. The end result is an unsatisfying experience, for both vehicle users and AV. Instead of vehicle fights being interesting conflicts that could last a while, theyGÇÖre either killed quickly or they escape. 4. The real problem here is that this can never be solved with the given system. Without the ability to cripple vehicles, fights will always be quick and unsatisfying. Make vehicle survivability high enough for interesting and prolonged fights, and they become insanely overpowered, since they can almost always escape. Keep them short and fights are boring; vehicles are cheap and expendable. You loose the risk/reward thrill that makes this game so compelling. 5. Capacitors would add a ton of depth to fitting and allow a broad array of gameplay styles. Some have mentioned they think managing modules would be difficult. Well they can use passive fits, so they can focus on maneuvering/firing. Others may prefer more control of their experience and want more active modules. This system would provide enough flexibility to allow all players the opportunity to have fun. In response to B. I would say that there will NEVER BE A BETTER TIME TO ADD CAPACITORS. Right now we have no vehicles from Amarr and Minmatar, we have no Pilot suits, and most of the Advanced vehicles are missing. We have a small set of vehicles to play with and get the balancing right. As we begin to fill in these gaps and design balance around the existing capacitorless mechanics, it will make adding capacitors exponentially more complicated and difficult the further this process progresses. Capacitors should be the bedrock upon which the future of vehicle combat in DUST (and ultimately Legion) is built. Yes the dev team has limited resources, but I think this should be the primary development focus right now. For starters, CCP could re-purpose the existing stamina code for use with capacitors. Later they can refine it, and improve the mechanics. Also they can outright rip off the numbers from EVE in terms of finding initial values for capacitors, regen, and modules that affect cap. To start IGÇÖd like to see capacitor batteries, capacitor flux coils, capacitor power relays, capacitor rechargers, neuts and webs. Additionally IGÇÖd like to see more slots so we can make more interesting fits. If we could add this stuff to the existing vehicles, we would set ourselves up for expanding the system over time by finishing the racial variants/turrets, adding the advanced vehicles, and pilot suits. Currently the dev team is planning on creating a simplistic crafting system. This baffles me. If resources are so constrained that they canGÇÖt work on the most critical parts of gameplay, why are they wasting so many resources duplicating something that is done much better (and will always be better) in EVE? If we donGÇÖt add capacitors now, and do another vehicle rebalance, I fear this will make capacitors impossible to add later. It will become harder and harder as time progresses. The result is that weGÇÖll doom all future combat in DUST and Legion to being inherently shallow and uninteresting. I think itGÇÖs the most critical priority for future development right now. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2761	Posted - 2015.01.26 21:32:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I don't think anyone is arguing against Capacitors, but from my dealings with CPM, CCP's current stance "We dont have the resources to do something like that right now" The fact of the matter is that vehicles are messed up right now, like...really badly messed up. Will capacitors make it better? Probably. Should we wait 1-2 years before they have the time and resources to fix it? God no. Easily made changes can happen right now to greatly improve the vehicle experience. Capacitors can do the same thing but will take far longer. The current rebalance effort has a significantly better Benefit/Cost ratio, so that's what we're going with. Besides, adding capacitor wont magically make everything balanced. All it does is replace the cooldown/duration system, but that doesn't affect HP, regen rates, turret damage, ect. All of those things need to be fixed anyways, so if they can be done now, then they should. Capacitors can come later, but right now I wan't them to fix the mess that Blamm made in the first place. Also simple crafting probably wont be much work to implement anyways. Resources drop in battle. Resource stock counts as a from of currency, you use the existing NPC Market to spend resource currency in order to buy the finished product. Simple crafting, runs off the existing market system. Won't be that hard to do. I really don't think capacitors would take 1-2 years to develop. They could start with cut/pasting the stamina code and making a few tweaks. You already have modules that can affect the size of the stamina pool, and it's regen rate, so the code exists for that functionality. You have a mechanism for regeneration, and for taking chunks of stamina away (jumping) so the stamina code, could at it's most basic level cover the bases for a capacitor system. The UI might take some work to redo, but we could simply use the stamina gauge with a different color as a stand-in until they can port the code from EVE's capacitor UI. If this stuff is written in nice, modular object-oriented code, then much of this should be able to be moved around without breaking other stuff, probably as much work as adding a crafting system. So you're right, if we had to wait 1-2 years to get it, it wouldn't be worth it, but I think even a very small team could hack this together in 2-3 months, especially if they base the values around those in EVE, which have already been balanced over a decade of play. I respectfully disagree that the current rebalance effort has a better cost/benefit ratio, especially when it would all have to be redone once capacitors are introduced later. It's the difference between building something that can evolve over time into something fantastic and spending a ton of effort on a side-effort that will later be completely abandoned and replaced. Even if the first is a little harder, it's worth it, because it's the foundation that will be build upon for decades, versus something that's got an expiration date, and will inherently suck. You're completely right of course that capacitors won't balance everything else (like HP values), but with capacitors in place, you can now design vehicles to have much more survivability, and balance around that. The easiest approach would be to cut/paste values from EVE's ships. Find appropriate analogs and use those to establish the values. These would need to be tweaked of course, as the games are different, but now you're moving forward towards a goal instead of tangental to where we need to be. Turret damage, EHP, regen rates, etc. all SHOULD BE DIFFERENT in a capacitor system. Vehicles could be MUCH stronger than without a capacitor system, because it'll be possible to cripple them. Vehicle fights would be designed to last 30-90 seconds instead of what we would get with the current designs. For argument's sake, let's assume the current rebalance moves forward without capacitors. When would be a better time to introduce them? IMO it will only ever get harder and harder later. At some point, it will be so cumbersome that CCP completely gives up on the idea. That would be horrible for the future of DUST/Legion. My timeline goes like this: 1. Introduce capacitors to existing system, increase slots, and bring back the old modules before 1.7 2. Hotfix balance tweaks 3. Introduce missing racial vehicles, turrets, heavy weapons 4. Hotfix balance tweaks 5. Add pilot suits 6. Hotfix balance tweaks 7. Add additional Ewar (tracking disruptors, target painters, ECM) 8. Hotfix balance tweaks 9. Add advanced vehicle variants. 10. Hotfix balance tweaks It seems like people want to progress: 1. Tweak numbers on existing system 2. Hotfix tweaks 3. Add advanced vehicles 4. Hotfix tweaks 5. add pilot suits? 6. Hotfix tweaks 7. *Trash all balancing data and start from scratch again with capacitors* 8. try to add back everything from before, completely rebalanced around capacitors It just seems like a crazy approach with a lot of wasted efforts. When you've got limited development resources, it's insane to constantly redesign the same stuff over-and-over. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2761	Posted - 2015.01.26 21:52:00 - [4] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: I don't like the idea of caps as it adds another full layer of things you would have to manage while actively controlling your vehicle. It's much easier to do a click based game like that, but not in a active combat setting. In non combat situations it would work due to not having to focus as hard, but in actual combat situations, it wouldn't work as well. It would be just too many things to do at once, and we don't have the hands to keep the vehicle moving, aim, and flip on and off modules. But it's EASIER to manage 1 pool than keep track of many multiple cooldowns. You can make passive fits with high regen and you can have a fit where you turn on your hardener and you'll be cap stable. That's LESS work than the current system. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2761	Posted - 2015.01.26 22:43:00 - [5] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: What exactly do you mean "Cut and paste the stamina code with minor tweaks"? A decay and growth function is about as basic as it gets, and that's all the stamina is. What you're asking for ties in with modules both in modification and activation, not to mention that if you want it to properly work like even then you're not even dealing with a linear function like stamina works off of. I'm not exactly and expert programmer, but I think you deeply underestimate the effort require to put this together. Is 1-2 years realistic? No, it was a hyperbole, but what do you think constitutes as a "small design team" that can "hack it together"? Are you aware of the size of the Dust development team? I'd like to see your source of information that you used to make this estimation. Like honestly though, have you been following the vehicle discussion? Are you aware of the severe problems between vehicles themselves? The fitting issues with the Madrugar? The problem with the function of blasters? The lack of proper skill bonuses and messed up skill progression? All of these issues are completely independent of anything to do with capacitors and desperately need to be addressed asap. It's like telling someone who just lost their legs "Oh well we're not going to give you a wheelchair, so just lay crippled in this bed for 6 months while we make prosthetic legs." I mean do you honestly think that the addition of capacitors would just "trash all balancing data" and make us "start from scratch again"? You don't think a well balanced, duration/cooldown system would be rendered completely useless overnight if capacitors were added? I'm not a game developer but I've been pretty balls deep in a dozen community design projects, and in every case, new systems take existing data and make it fit the new system. All Duration/Cooldown really represents is "If I run for 30 seconds and take 90 to cool down, that means I consume 3 seconds of capacitor recharge time for every second of activation. The conversion is of course not that exact, but the principles can be readily converted from Duration/Cooldown into a Capacitor system without significant changes to the base values. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2761	Posted - 2015.01.26 23:21:00 - [6] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Thanks for your response. The existing stamina system has been designed to integrate with modules, to accept modifiers from modules, and can accommodate large drops in the values based on actions in-game (when you jump). It fills all of the existing needs for a capacitor system. They could use a simple linear regeneration function to start, and tweak the function later, or call up the guys in Iceland and ask for the function they're using for EVE. In the code, the class interface would almost certainly look very similar to a capacitor system. This is simply based on my own experience as a hobbyist programmer. I really don't think it's as major of an undertaking as you believe it to be. Of course there could be performance challenges, and bugs that would need to be resolved, that's likely where the bulk of the development time would be spent. Things always take longer than they appear, so you're right that it could be more involved than I believe it to be. As far as trashing the data, it comes down to whether engagements are designed to be very short (as they are now) or much longer. That's a major deal. I was somewhat hyperbolic with the trash everything comment, and you're right about the skill tree being a mess, but damage, hp, hp regen, and even speeds would all be dramatically different if designed for a short fight or a long fight. You really would have to almost start from scratch again. Code....doesn't work like that. Yes stamina accepts modifiers from skills and modules, that much is easy, but you still have to code in how activation costs of modules, weapon useage, ect. Im not saying you can't use existing code, but theres a lot more to it than what you're describing, and as far as I know there are exactly 0 dedicated programmers working on Dust. And development of that nature is borrowed from the Legion team. Also linear regeneration is kinda bad because there would be no middle ground in cap stable/non stable. Linear Rechage would mean that Cap Stable = 100% capacitor all the time which can be problematic if you ever want to have some proper EWAR...but that's not really important at this point. And again I don't see how the length of battles for Duration/Cooldown would differ from a Capacitor system....not should they differ. A module that has to cool down for 90 seconds and runs for 30 is simply a 3:1 Cap Recharge/Activation Cost ratio. HP and rate of recovery wouldn't change, nor would the effective activation cost of the module. The only difference is that available activation time and total cap capacity are pooled instead of per module. But even then if there were issues, you can maintain the same level of module performance and balance them entirely around cap cost and not disrupting previous balance effort. Well if a fight should last 4x as long, then either DPS needs to be reduced by 400%, HP increased by 400%, or a combination of many different and complex variables need to be tweaked and ironed out (which is the obvious correct solution). That's what I mean by balancing. In a capacitor system, vehicles would be fundamentally different, they would be very powerful: something like 4x harder to kill, but they would be vulnerable to being "tackled" and beat down. That's much different than just messing with timers and cooldowns, that's designing a completely different style and pacing of vehicle-based combat. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2761	Posted - 2015.01.27 01:33:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Vell0cet wrote: All kinds of EVE things My opinion is that active and passive fitting is perfect for vehicle combat in an FPS. Don't forget, EVE does not have WASD movement, it is inherently less dependent on user input, and that's why it has more point and click combat, managing heat, capacity, ammo, ewar etc. Capacitors are just one thing that could be done, needs balancing and design like any other system. Another layer of complexity does not seem like what we need when there are so many low hanging fruit. Just going through the misery of starting to go into vehicles has opened my eyes to the HAV plight of fitting and skilling. On the other hand, in battle it's been a breeze, as in I'm having fun. I also think that a Maddie Blaster fit should be the first tank new players skill into as the turret speed is more forgiving and the charge-up of the rail makes it so much less easy to use than one might think coming from BF, for instance. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. While I'm disappointed that capacitors aren't on the short or medium-term horizon, I appreciate that you're at least communicating that to us. I don't really see capacitors as another layer of complexity. I see it as unifying the complexity of multiple cooldowns that we currently have. It's actually a simplification of the current system. You're right that not everything in EVE should transfer to DUST/Legion. They ARE different styles of games, and managing lots of systems is a big part of EVE's combat experience that wouldn't translate well to DUST--I agree with you there. For one thing, I don't think overheating would make sense in an FPS. It requires too much micromanagement. But with the ability to configure your HAV to your taste, you would have the option to build cap-stable fits that require LESS management than what we have now. It gives the player freedom and flexibility. I also see it as a major balancing tool for you guys. Right now you can really only tweak things that directly increase or decrease survivability. This would give you other variables to tweak that would affect survivability only indirectly. I feel like it would probably be useful to have those balancing options in your toolkit. I know you're not a huge EVE player, but there is a lot of manual piloting in EVE, trying to maintain transversal against your opponent and position properly (If you're clicking "orbit" or "approach" in PvP, you're doing it wrong). Honestly I don't see much changing from a module-management standpoint with the addition of capacitors. You may have to turn a few things off more often to conserve cap, but it would be unwise for a player to fit more active modules than he can manage on his HAV. I'm sure there's a sweet-spot of module count that's reasonable to manage while still engaging in visceral FPS vehicle combat (a repper, prop mod, maybe a hardener or two, it's really not that crazy). I hope this has been at least somewhat helpful in terms of maybe influencing your thinking of how/when capacitors might fit into a longer-term roadmap. In my opinion it would be a mistake to write capacitors off as adding complexity to an already complex game. I don't want to derail any progress. It seems like the train is already too far past the station at this point, so I'll respectfully bow out. As always, thanks for your hard work. o7 Best PvE idea ever!