DUST Search - CCP, we need you to settle a dispute. Numbers stuff.

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Fizzer XCIV wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

delay is back to back

bullet delay bullet delay bullet delay.

However there is a REFIRE delay limiting trigger pulls.

so you cannot pull the trigger fast enough to mimic autofire, which causes the RoF of a combat rifle to stutter instead of run constant.

Precisely.

I'm saying that there are effectively only 3 delays per burst. 2 of them last 0.05s and the last one lasts 0.06s. This is why the CR can never perfectly fire at 1200 RPM, but it instead can only reach 1125 RPM.

They are saying that there is a 0.05 delay behind every bullet plus a 0.06 delay after the three other delays. And their arguement just doesnt add up.
There is no way the CR can only fire at an effective rate of 857.14... You don't need math th be able to tell that the CR can fire faster than that.

realistically it doesn't matter, controlled bursts that don't approach the actual fire rate will kill faster than spastic butan mashing anyway. but. you can realistically only do 4 bursts per second. even when yanking the trigger like a chump.

rate of fire is how fast the bullets leave the barrel when the trigger is pulled. it is a completely separate number from the number of times you can pull the trigger per minute. so the timing delay is 1200 RPM, yes, but because of the refire delay RPM ACTUAL is around 720 give or take assuming 3 round bursts.

so their math is correct, sadly, you have a tenth of a second delay between when your last bullet leaves, and the next trigger pull registers.

it's designed that way so you cannot use a modded controller to turn a combat rifle into a poor man's ACR deliberately.


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Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2260	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:46:00 - [1] - Quote Myself and some other people are having some pretty heated arguments about the effective refire rate of CRs. I believe that the refire rate is 6.25 bursts per second, with each burst lasting 0.16 seconds from trigger pull to the end of the delay. I use the following logic: The first bullet is fired at 0.00s, which is the exact moment the trigger is pulled. The second bullet is the fired at 0.05s. The third bullet is fired at 0.10s. There is then a 0.06s delay which begins as the last bullet is fired. This totals to a 0.16s refire rate. Or 6.25 bursts per second. They believe the refire rate is 4.76 bursts per second. Their logic is as follows: The trigger is pulled. At 0.00s the first bullet is fired. At 0.05 the second bullet is fired. At 0.10 the third bullet is fired. There is a 0.05s delay(this is where I find issue with their logic) Then there is another 0.6s delay, which they believe only starts 0.05 seconds after the third bullet had fired. Theirs totals to 0.21s per burst, or 4.76 burst per second. Generally, my arguement is that they are adding a 0.05s delay that doesn't actually exist. Could someone with better access to numbers or an acute knowledge of the mechanics clear this up? Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2261	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:53:00 - [2] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: If delays are back to back, why wouldn't they just say the delay was 0.65 and not 0.6? I don't know what the numbers are, but right off the bat their argument isn't making sense (unless it was phrased differently than they would have phrased it). Typo on my part. Not 0.6 0.06 Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2261	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:30:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: delay is back to back bullet delay bullet delay bullet delay. However there is a REFIRE delay limiting trigger pulls. so you cannot pull the trigger fast enough to mimic autofire, which causes the RoF of a combat rifle to stutter instead of run constant. Precisely. I'm saying that there are effectively only 3 delays per burst. 2 of them last 0.05s and the last one lasts 0.06s. This is why the CR can never perfectly fire at 1200 RPM, but it instead can only reach 1125 RPM. They are saying that there is a 0.05 delay behind every bullet plus a 0.06 delay after the three other delays. And their arguement just doesnt add up. There is no way the CR can only fire at an effective rate of 857.14... You don't need math th be able to tell that the CR can fire faster than that. Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2261	Posted - 2015.01.16 20:14:00 - [4] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: delay is back to back bullet delay bullet delay bullet delay. However there is a REFIRE delay limiting trigger pulls. so you cannot pull the trigger fast enough to mimic autofire, which causes the RoF of a combat rifle to stutter instead of run constant. Precisely. I'm saying that there are effectively only 3 delays per burst. 2 of them last 0.05s and the last one lasts 0.06s. This is why the CR can never perfectly fire at 1200 RPM, but it instead can only reach 1125 RPM. They are saying that there is a 0.05 delay behind every bullet plus a 0.06 delay after the three other delays. And their arguement just doesnt add up. There is no way the CR can only fire at an effective rate of 857.14... You don't need math th be able to tell that the CR can fire faster than that. realistically it doesn't matter, controlled bursts that don't approach the actual fire rate will kill faster than spastic butan mashing anyway. but. you can realistically only do 4 bursts per second. even when yanking the trigger like a chump. rate of fire is how fast the bullets leave the barrel when the trigger is pulled. it is a completely separate number from the number of times you can pull the trigger per minute. so the timing delay is 1200 RPM, yes, but because of the refire delay RPM ACTUAL is around 720 give or take assuming 3 round bursts. so their math is correct, sadly, you have a tenth of a second delay between when your last bullet leaves, and the next trigger pull registers. it's designed that way so you cannot use a modded controller to turn a combat rifle into a poor man's ACR deliberately. Wrong. Effective RoF is 1125, not 720. Where do you get 720? No calculation gets that number, at all. You are obviously another CR peasant that doesn't understand their own gun. Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2262	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:00:00 - [5] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Wrong. Effective RoF is 1125, not 720. Where do you get 720? No calculation gets that number, at all. You are obviously another CR peasant that doesn't understand their own gun. 720 because I did the math wrong, get over it, it happens. But you're wrong about the fire delay. You can only pull the trigger after the full delay has passed on, because the rate of fire doesn't take into account the refire delay. Alright, you seem to at least be a bit more intelligent than the tojo guy in the other thread, so I'll explain this purely by the books. There are three different types of actions that take place when a CR fires its burst. GÇóunstantHitDamage GÇófireInterval GÇóburstInterval -The first one, instantHitDamage, is basically the rifle just checking if it is aiming at an enemy, and applying damage if it is. This action takes 0.00 seconds. It just happens, there is not time consumed by this action. -The second one, fireInterval, is the amount of time that is consumed between two consecutive shots, and only in between two consecutive shots. In the case of the CR, this amount of time in 0.05 seconds. For Fully automatic weapons this number determines the effective rate of fire. For semiautomatics, this nebmer detemines the maximum rate of fire. For bursts, it determinines the speed at which the bullets in the burst are fired. Remember, this action only runs between shots, not before or after the shots at the beginning and end of the burst. This is the part that I'm certain you guys arent taking into consideration. Only in between consecutive shots. -The third action is burstInterval. This is value that determines how long it take before you can begen the next burst, after the last bullet of the previos bust has fired.This action only happens after the last shot in a burst is fired. It takes exactly 0.06s to run its course. Following these rules, we can make a sort of diagram detail to represent a burst. For this diagram a degree symbol(-¦) will represent a instantHitDamage. These use no time. A fireInterval will be represented by a dash (-). These use 0.05 seconds. A burstInterval will be represented by an underscore(_). These use 0.06 seconds. Using the stated rules above, a burst looks like this. -¦--¦--¦_ We can see that there are two fire intervals, and one burstInterval. 0.05+0.05+0.06=0.16 By doing this, we can conclude that a burst takes 0.16 second from trigger pull to end. When you divide 1 by 0.16 to determine the maximum amount of bursts possible in a single second. 1 ++ 0.16 = 6.25 We get the number 6.25 for the amount of bursts that can be fired in a second. Multiply 6.25 by three for the amount of bullets in a burst, and we get the amount of bullets that can be shot in a single second. 6.25 x 3 =18.75 As we can see, it is possible to have 18.75 bullets fired in a single second. I know it seems odd to say that 18.75 shots are possible, but that just means that 3 out of 4 seconds will contain 19 bullets, and 1 out of 4 will contain 18. It's a kind of average. Then we multiply 18.75 by 60 to get the total amount of bullets that can be fired in a full minute. 18.75 x 60 = 1125 1125. That is the maximum RoF anyone can ever expect to get from a CR. Doing basic DPS calculations, we can figure out the maximum DPS of CRs. STD = 506.25 ADV = 531.6525 PRO = 556.875 Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2262	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:30:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: right. unfortunately you're not accounting for the fact that it's CCP. what is more likely? the way you explain it? Or the idea that the stutter is added on to the end of the last delay? Use CCP logic, not Fizzer Logic or even Rattati logic here. I don't need to take CCP logic into account. We cave access to the very fiber of this game via the RAW SDE. We can get the info straight from the dust 514 file. Directly from the client. The physics and rules that run the game. That's where I get all of the information on things I don't know about in this game, because it is flawless info. There is no mess ups, no unaccounted stutter. The numbers are telling us exactly what goes on. Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2262	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:42:00 - [7] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: the solution to the "dispute" is, that fire interval is triggered for each bullet fired which is true for all weapons. burst interval is triggered after burst length is fired. the correct formula is burst length x fire interval + burst interval = total interval for each burst 60 / total interval for each burst * burst length = the real RPM (this can be even read up here, explained by a CCP Logibro right in the post how it is calculated. : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=175033) amusing how often I had to repost this, some people just cant accept they are wrong Actually, we can tell that fire interval only takes place in between shots by testing it with low RoF guns. Let's use the Breach Shotgun for example. Notice how you can reload the weapon immediately after firing, without having to wait for any fire intervals to run? Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2262	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:56:00 - [8] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Jack McReady wrote: the solution to the "dispute" is, that fire interval is triggered for each bullet fired which is true for all weapons. burst interval is triggered after burst length is fired. the correct formula is burst length x fire interval + burst interval = total interval for each burst 60 / total interval for each burst * burst length = the real RPM (this can be even read up here, explained by a CCP Logibro right in the post how it is calculated. : https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=175033) amusing how often I had to repost this, some people just cant accept they are wrong Actually, we can tell that fire interval only takes place in between shots by testing it with low RoF guns. Let's use the Breach Shotgun for example. Notice how you can reload the weapon immediately after firing, without having to wait for any fire intervals to run? which has absolutely no relevance to the RPM at all. underlined part additionally to your post says it all. no one can take you serious anymore. I've read it every time, and summarily dismissed it when the equation ends up with a 857 RoF. We don't even need math to know that a CR can fire faster than that. You don't need math to know that the CR can fire more than 7.14% faster than an AR. There is something wrong with your equasion , bruh. Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2262	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:19:00 - [9] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: I've read it every time, and summarily dismissed it when the equation ends up with a 857 RoF. We don't even need math to know that a CR can fire faster than that. You don't need math to know that the CR can fire more than 7.14% faster than an AR. There is something wrong with your equasion , bruh. underlined part split personalities? ignorance must be a blessing for all of them. so you dismiss ccp logibro and you are saying that he (a dev of dust) is wrong. you are amusing me bigtime. and best part is, just tested it right now ingame and WHO WOULD GUESS it behaves exactly like I calculated. even tested with turbo contoller Devs have been known to be wrong before. They are human after all. Take the increased SP payouts that were going to be introduced. The intention was that a player would only be able to get 750K active SP per week, but the math ended up with players able to get 3M. Home at Last <3