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Clone D
1360
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Posted - 2015.01.16 14:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR Don't reply if you can't take the time to read an OP
Preface
RE: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181612&find=unread
These conclusions are drawn from the frequency at which I have observed mercs choosing to HP tank over choosing proper maneuvering and mobility. People in this game generally want to hide behind huge amounts of HP, hence the invincible shield gunlogis who use a 1500 hp heavy suit.
Strafing From Behind Cover
When a merc is behind cover, how does he/she engage the enemy? There is no peeking out from behind walls in this game. You're either behind cover or fully exposed. If you try to inch out from behind cover, then your shots will hit the invisible hit-detection wall in front of you until you finally inch out and are fully exposed.
This leaves two options:
1. strafe out from behind cover.
2. face to one side, run out from behind cover, then turn to face the opponent, aim and shoot.
Option 1 is obviously the more efficient option and creates more of a sense of realism. If we penalize strafing speed, then strafing from behind cover will result in taking more damage from enemy fire while attempting to pop out and shoot.
Now, most fittings that I see on the field are shield/armor modded in some form or fashion. When their strafing capabilities suffer because of this, then mercs will likely be inclined to further shield/armor tank their fitting for survivability.
Conclusion: strafe penalty encourages HP tanking.
Strafing In The Open
When an experienced merc finds him/her self engaging the enemy in the open, he/she considers the ranges of the weapons of both parties. The ideal is to remain just outside of the effective range of the opponent, while remaining within the effective range of your own weapon, all while staying directly out of the line of fire of the enemy. This results in strafing in an arc shape or line at a constant distance away from the enemy.
If strafing is penalized, then remaining at that optimum distance while engaging and strafing will result in difficulty staying directly out of the line of fire of the enemy. Because mercs will continue to be hit while strafing, my conjecture is that they will abandon strafing for weaving while running toward the opponent.
Of course, weaving at its most basic form will result in the swift closing of distance between the two mercs, concluding in their standing three feet away from each other shooting into each others faces at point blank, trying to strafe to no avail.
Once weaving becomes the de facto method of engagement, more mercs will shield/armor tank in order to survive those last final blows at point blank range.
Conclusion: strafe penalty encourages HP tanking.
Critical Thinking
Without some form of HP modification we call our suits squishy. Why is that? Do they not already have enough HP to perform the role for which they were intended? Or do we face, yet again, another game design flaw concerning the amount of default HP given to a dropsuit in comparison to the variations of HP tanking that we encounter on the field? |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6700
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Posted - 2015.01.16 14:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Conclusion: strafe penalty encourages HP tanking. My number of fittings that use armor plates has been cut in half since the strafe penalty was introduced. They were mostly replaced with ferroscales, some with reactives, depending on the dropsuit's role.
EDIT: checked the usage numbers for armor plates and noted they are still prevalent. I wish I could view the historical data to compare usage pre-strafe penalty introduction to post.
Clone D wrote:Without some form of HP modification we call our suits squishy. Why is that? Do they not already have enough HP to perform the role for which they were intended? Or do we face, yet again, another game design flaw concerning the amount of default HP given to a dropsuit in comparison to the variations of HP tanking that we encounter on the field? In the case of most dropsuits, they do in fact have the HP required to perform their role. The one exception that comes to mind is the logistic dropsuit; poor guys get primaried more than Mr. King at a klan rally.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
1820
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Posted - 2015.01.16 14:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Conclusion: strafe penalty encourages HP tanking.
this pretty much summarizes it... regular plates are now pointless outside of armor tanked heavies which are already slow to being with.
beside that, I dont get the whine about strafe speeds, the strafe speeds in dust are not that high anyway, other console shooters strafe speed is at the level that our scouts have. I dont have issues hitting scouts and others never have issues hitting my scout.
but kids will whine regardless if its true or not, they live in their own isolated fantasy bubble. |
Clone D
1361
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Posted - 2015.01.16 14:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:My number of fittings that use armor plates has been cut in half since the strafe penalty was introduced. They were mostly replaced with ferroscales, some with reactives, depending on the dropsuit's role.
Yes, I hope that ferroscale and reactives remain untouched by this rule. I noticed in Ratatti's announcement "Reactives and Ferroscales may be omitted in the first pass". That leaves it ominously open ended. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6701
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Posted - 2015.01.16 14:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Yes, I hope that ferroscale and reactives remain untouched by this rule. I noticed in Ratatti's announcement "Reactives and Ferroscales may be omitted in the first pass". That leaves it ominously open ended. I could potentially see reactives having the penalty, as they have a walk/sprint speed penalty already. Ferroscales, on the other hand, lack a mobility penalty. That's their schtick: they are armor HP without mobility loss.
Here's hoping Rattati agrees...
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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PARKOUR PRACTIONER
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
2456
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Posted - 2015.01.16 14:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
This makes sense. +1
Untrained Ninja Assassin
PSN Sil4ntChaozz/Protofits SilentChaozz
Minmatar in game & out
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Vlad Rostok
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
94
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Posted - 2015.01.16 17:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:My number of fittings that use armor plates has been cut in half since the strafe penalty was introduced. They were mostly replaced with ferroscales, some with reactives, depending on the dropsuit's role. Yes, I hope that ferroscale and reactives remain untouched by this rule. I noticed in Ratatti's announcement "Reactives and Ferroscales may be omitted in the first pass". That leaves it ominously open ended.
I learned quite a while ago that plate tanking was not for me. I primarily use ferroscales and reppers, with some reactives. I prefer being able to move at a fast pace.
That may be why I was unaware that there had been a strafe nerf. |
DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
7091
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Posted - 2015.01.16 17:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Not everyone can strafe equally though. The people that got the most benefit are the ones who have worse connections.
If a person with good Internet strafes then it barely makes a difference, but if someone with terrible internet decides to strafe then shots tend to not register on them.
That's why strafing needs to he reduced. In other games strafing isn't as big of an issue because their player pools are larger so lag tends to be less severe.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Skullmiser Vulcansu
246
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Posted - 2015.01.16 18:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
I can't handle more than a 4% movement penalty. I can't jump high enough to get on boxes, or over railings if I exceed this number. I haven't noticed strafing trouble recently. I don't use more than one regular plate ever. I use multiple reactive plates, though.
If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
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Timtron Victory
Horizons' Edge
264
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Posted - 2015.01.16 18:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
I honestly dont care much for it anymore. Strafing or bunny hopping
Laser rifle for bunny hopping
Flaylock for strafing
I never had a problem with strafing but some players seem to move so fast that bullets dont register. Thats why I stopped using bullets haha
Dust Weekly Lottery
Proud Christian
Jesus Loves You
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Breakin Stuff
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
6484
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Posted - 2015.01.16 18:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
strafing is a big deal because as I found out from testing, the glitchy hit detection only affects you if you will not/cannot engage aim assist.
Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2894
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Posted - 2015.01.16 18:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Strafing should not be penalized, but hit detection of fast moving targets is lacking and should be fixed, IMO. |
Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2894
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Posted - 2015.01.16 18:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:strafing is a big deal because as I found out from testing, the glitchy hit detection only affects you if you will not/cannot engage aim assist.
Not even close to true. Both MKB and DS3 with/without AA both suffer hit detection issues in low framerate situations.
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GLOBAL fils'de RAGE
Consolidated Dust
139
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Posted - 2015.01.16 18:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:Strafing should not be penalized, but hit detection of fast moving targets is lacking and should be fixed, IMO.
Impossible given region crossing.
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DUST Fiend
duna corp
15563
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Posted - 2015.01.16 18:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Any strafe nerf is a direct buff to missile ADS, so im against it.
My YouTube (currently inactive)
Homeless Dropship Enthusiast
"See You Space Cowboy"
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Clone D
1363
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Posted - 2015.01.16 18:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Were the actual numbers for the penalties posted anywhere?
Also, another argument against penalizing shield extenders is that it devalues high slots. There is now no HP modifier for high slots without a strafe penalty, while low slots do have that option. For that reason, I would be inclined to choose dropsuits with more low slots than high slots.
Precision modules have effectively been nerfed due to close/med/far ewar.
Shield extenders have been nerfed due to strafe penalty.
This leaves damage modifiers, myofibril stimulants, shield energizers and shield rechargers as favored modules for hi slots, of which I would only be inclined to use damage modifiers. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6712
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Posted - 2015.01.16 19:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Were the actual numbers for the penalties posted anywhere?. The strafe penalties are equal to twice the walk/sprint speed penalties.
Also, shield modules never received a strafe speed penalty, due to community feedback. At least, that's the last I heard.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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KILL3R H3LLH0UND
Titans of Phoenix
VP Gaming Alliance
186
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Posted - 2015.01.16 19:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Any strafe nerf is a direct buff to missile ADS, so im against it.
whoa. you used to be a good guy.. your in DUNA CORP NOW? what happened?!
Ex-Master Scout Trainer, been falling in love with my Minja again.
I <3 my Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2896
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Posted - 2015.01.16 19:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:Strafing should not be penalized, but hit detection of fast moving targets is lacking and should be fixed, IMO. Impossible given region crossing, and other problems.
It will never be perfect, but it can be greatly improved. None of the other FPS games I've played has such a dynamic. |
KING CHECKMATE
Opus Arcana
Covert Intervention
7064
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Posted - 2015.01.16 20:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
we dont need a strafing penalty.
We just need hit detection on Uber strafers fixed.
One thing is to fail your shots and get killed, another is to hit him in the face for full 5 seconds and not get 1HP damage done...
Playing as : Calscout + Amarr Assault
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