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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
773
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Posted - 2015.01.15 17:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Rattati i know that swarms received a increased turn radius so that quick targets could drive around a corner to evade swarms but this doesnt work with a dropship. Even a ADS is too slouggish and when you perform a turn you loose alot of momentum which basically means that swarms will still catch you due to their nature of taking the shortest way to the target.
I was able to exploit this multiple times with a LAV (cause they are actually quick eneough) or even watch how a guy that was ontop of a building firing his swarms on me just so that they hit the ground. Something needs to be done and i advocate to reduce the max flight distance from swarms to the same as their lock on range.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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Hector Carson
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
142
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Posted - 2015.01.15 20:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
You have to think about it for a second, Dropships fly, turning in the air isn't exactly going to be easy, its not an LAV. So of course the swarms are going to hit you in the air.
Think of it this way:
Swarm Vs. Dropship YOUR GONNA GET HIT
Assault c.k0
Proto Tankers
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Grimmiers
762
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Posted - 2015.01.15 21:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
The turn radius of the swarms allow the swarms to spin around the dropship multiple times before hitting. I've never seen a swarm go past my dropship. Your only option is to fly the flight ceiling and looping back until the swarms reach their max distance of 400 meters. Even for a scifi game the swarm tracking abilities are physically impossible/cartoony to the point where it must be a glitch.
Turn radius means nothing if swarms never actually lose their target. |
DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
15552
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Posted - 2015.01.15 22:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hector Carson wrote:You have to think about it for a second, Dropships fly, turning in the air isn't exactly going to be easy, its not an LAV. So of course the swarms are going to hit you in the air.
Think of it this way:
Swarm Vs. Dropship YOUR GONNA GET HIT How is that an engaging game design?
One person cant miss, and the other cant evade except by never being there in the first place. Ive personally proposed faster flight time with less flight duration, which may allow drop ships to actually evade if the homing isnt too strong, yet still gives the advantage to swarm launchers who wait till the DS is close / hovering. It also eliminates the annoying "fly away forever, yet still get hit" nature of swarms
My YouTube (currently inactive)
Homeless Dropship Enthusiast
"See You Space Cowboy"
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
773
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Posted - 2015.01.15 23:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hector Carson wrote:You have to think about it for a second, Dropships fly, turning in the air isn't exactly going to be easy, its not an LAV. So of course the swarms are going to hit you in the air.
Think of it this way:
Swarm Vs. Dropship YOUR GONNA GET HIT duh! the turn radius nerf was actually supposed to help dropships but in the end it did nothing at all.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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a brackers
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
90
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Posted - 2015.01.18 12:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hector Carson wrote:You have to think about it for a second, Dropships fly, turning in the air isn't exactly going to be easy, its not an LAV. So of course the swarms are going to hit you in the air.
Think of it this way:
Swarm Vs. Dropship YOUR GONNA GET HIT
It shouldn't be the case. Even the apache which is a fairly heavy bellicose for its size, can still dodge most guided missiles. And it has flares on top of that. Ads' s should really get flares to help avoid missiles
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Kuruld Sengar
Y.A.M.A.H
156
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Posted - 2015.01.18 13:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
There is also the end stage of swarm flight where when they near the end of their flight they instantly turn their sprite angle to face the dropship while gaining a short burst in speed, making turn speed entirely irrelevant in open air... |
a brackers
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
92
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Posted - 2015.01.19 13:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
The main problem with swarms being impossible to dodge is they don't actually have a 60m turn radius. Immediately after they are fired and when within a few meters of the target vehicle they have about a 1m turn radius. That's why they are guaranteed to hit. There are two numbers for swarm turn radius and rattati only changed one.
The proof of these two turn radiuses; when u lock onto a tank then turn around and fire facing away from the target, are the swarms 120m above you before they're facing the target? Also, I am still seeing swarms 'orbiting' my ads when they should have missed. They orbit it at a distance starting at about 10m then get closer and hit they should orbit at 120m and never get any closer if the turn radius was correct, but they'd never start orbiting in the first place if that was correct.
Implementing the correct turn radius would cause swarmers to need to aim somewhere near the target for their missiles to hit, and would give all vehicles a chance to avoid missiles.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2304
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Posted - 2015.01.19 14:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Of you are a vehicle pilot, AV will kill you. Get over it guys. You are meant to die as well. Your KD/Rs should be measured in the teens for every match.
Home at Last <3
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Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
532
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Posted - 2015.01.19 15:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
1. Swarms are broken anyways and need to either be deleted or a big injection of aim and skill
2. Swarm missiles will set off at full speed, stop on a dime, do a 256deg turn on the spot and set off again at full speed aswell as avoiding corners
3. I like your idea |
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2306
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Posted - 2015.01.19 17:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:1. Swarms are broken anyways and need to either be deleted or a big injection of aim and skill
2. Swarm missiles will set off at full speed, stop on a dime, do a 256deg turn on the spot and set off again at full speed aswell as avoiding corners
3. I like your idea
1.) Every FPS with Vehicles has lock on anti vehicle launchers. Deal with it. Good luck finding one that doesn't that isn't also set in WWII.
2.) You are artificially making it sound worse by saying 256-¦, which is impossible beyond even the exaggeration. Do you understand how degrees work?
3.) Of course you would. All you've ever expressed on these forums is your opinions of how you should be immune to AV.
Home at Last <3
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a brackers
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
92
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Posted - 2015.01.19 17:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Lazer Fo Cused wrote:1. Swarms are broken anyways and need to either be deleted or a big injection of aim and skill
2. Swarm missiles will set off at full speed, stop on a dime, do a 256deg turn on the spot and set off again at full speed aswell as avoiding corners
3. I like your idea 1.) Every FPS with Vehicles has lock on anti vehicle launchers. Deal with it. Good luck finding one that doesn't that isn't also set in WWII. 2.) You are artificially making it sound worse by saying 256-¦, which is impossible beyond even the exaggeration. Do you understand how degrees work? 3.) Of course you would. All you've ever expressed on these forums is your opinions of how you should be immune to AV.
1. Every fps also has a way for player controlled vehicles to dodge the swarms, also most don't have cost mechanics
2. Swarms when close to the target can and do orbit it at 10m when they should miss. This is because swarms have two turn radii. One when they are close to the launcher or target and a second when they are in flight not near anything. When they are near the target of they should have missed they will instead orbit in a decaying orbit until they hit. This means yes they can turn through 256-¦ in a much shorter distance than their 120m turn diameter. 256-¦ was just an arbitrary number he decided to say. (See my reply a couple of comments up as to swarm turn radius)
3. No idea what this is about. There have been numerous good ideas to fix the ridiculously op swarms in this topic, no idea which I've he was referring to in this instance.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2307
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Posted - 2015.01.19 17:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Maybe the reason vehicles don't like swarms is because swarms are the only thing that kills them? Easy fix: Buff all other AV so they can also kill vehicles. Balanced.
Home at Last <3
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Ku Shala
The Generals
1141
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Posted - 2015.01.19 18:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Maybe the reason vehicles don't like swarms is because swarms are the only thing that kills them? Easy fix: Buff all other AV so they can also kill vehicles. Balanced. have you tried a forge gun av nades are a good 'finish him' tactic if you're close enough. I have a forge gun my experience with proxies is limited no comment, remotes compared to other explosive are op~
-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)
Caldari Loyalist
Tiger Style
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2307
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Posted - 2015.01.19 18:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ku Shala wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Maybe the reason vehicles don't like swarms is because swarms are the only thing that kills them? Easy fix: Buff all other AV so they can also kill vehicles. Balanced. have you tried a forge gun av nades are a good 'finish him' tactic if you're close enough. I have a forge gun my experience with proxies is limited no comment, remotes compared to other explosive are op~
I should correct. Swarms are the only good light AV. So naturally, they are use a lot. More than any other AV option. So naturally, they get the most vehicle kills in the game. So naturally, vehicle users perceive them to be OP.
So, instead of nerfing the only decent light AV option, why don't we make all light AV decent?
Home at Last <3
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2798
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Posted - 2015.01.19 18:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:
3.) Of course you would. All you've ever expressed on these forums is your opinions of how you should be immune to AV.
Where has any pilot ever said they wanted to be immune to AV?
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2798
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Posted - 2015.01.19 18:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:Rattati i know that swarms received a increased turn radius so that quick targets could drive around a corner to evade swarms but this doesnt work with a dropship. Even a ADS is too slouggish and when you perform a turn you loose alot of momentum which basically means that swarms will still catch you due to their nature of taking the shortest way to the target.
I was able to exploit this multiple times with a LAV (cause they are actually quick eneough) or even watch how a guy that was ontop of a building firing his swarms on me just so that they hit the ground. Something needs to be done and i advocate to reduce the max flight distance from swarms to the same as their lock on range. It doesn't work if you're in a LAV or tank. Swarms ignore terrain and obstacles, while going around 2 corners to hit me. I've watched watched it happen.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2307
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Posted - 2015.01.19 18:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:
3.) Of course you would. All you've ever expressed on these forums is your opinions of how you should be immune to AV.
Where has any pilot ever said they wanted to be immune to AV?
His whole schpiel for the last week has been him proposing that Swarms should need to be manually guided, and if they lose lock, the missiles blow up. Not continue flying in the same direction they were last going, no. Just blow up if the user manages to lose track of the vehicle for even a millisecond.
That would make vehicles immune to swarms. And since vehicles can already practically ignore Plasma Cannons, AV nades and Prox mines, they would become essentially immune. There would be forge guns. That's it.
Home at Last <3
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Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
540
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Posted - 2015.01.19 19:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:
3.) Of course you would. All you've ever expressed on these forums is your opinions of how you should be immune to AV.
Where has any pilot ever said they wanted to be immune to AV? His whole schpiel for the last week has been him proposing that Swarms should need to be manually guided, and if they lose lock, the missiles blow up. Not continue flying in the same direction they were last going, no. Just blow up if the user manages to lose track of the vehicle for even a millisecond. That would make vehicles immune to swarms. And since vehicles can already practically ignore Plasma Cannons, AV nades and Prox mines, they would become essentially immune. There would be forge guns. That's it.
1. It actually means you have to be in a proper position and not hurr durr fire fire fire while being behind cover looking up at the sky while you fire them and the missiles going around the corner - Also when you lose lock the missiles blow up so you can fire another set instead of waiting for them to blow up eventually but if you want to waste time waiting for them to blow then so be it
2. PLC shot is too slow
3. AV nades dont require aim but there throw and it will hit it anyways even if i was throwing it over the vehicle it should have less damage for another skillless weapon
4. Prox mines work its just that CCP screwed everyone with bandwidth |
Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2307
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Posted - 2015.01.19 20:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
The best way to stop the Swarm frustration is to make Plasma Cannons as viable at AV as them. Some people will migrate to Plasma Cannons, and vehicle users will stop dying by Swarms so much.
How do I know people will drop Swarms for PLCs? People love PLCs. This has been well established by the thread that asked people what their top three favorite weapons are. A vast majority of people listed the Plasma Cannon to be one of their three favorite weapons. They are well established as one of the player favorites.
Make it useful and people will use it. We want to use them. We want a more engaging AV experience available to us, but we also want a simple AV experience for newbros to utilize so that they aren't vehicle food.
Most people just use swarms out of nessecity, rather than personal choice.
So make Plasma Cannons better at AV. Swarm usage will drop, and V/AV will become more engaging for both sides.
Home at Last <3
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
16681
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Posted - 2015.01.19 20:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:
That would make vehicles immune to swarms. And since vehicles can already practically ignore Plasma Cannons, AV nades and Prox mines, they would become essentially immune. There would be forge guns. That's it.
Never EVER ignore as Plasma Cannon.
I'm aware of the DPS values as you should be. That's 0.45 sec charge time plus 2.2 seconds Reload on the Commando plus a nasty 1500 direct damage (if I remember correctly it's not the 1155 any more) for something like 800 DPS....and if its a Kubo's......
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2308
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Posted - 2015.01.19 20:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
A Swarm Luncher outputs 1040-1248 damage every 1.4 seconds without factoring any Damage multipliers, just base damage. That's a total of 742-891 DPS, depending on tier.
Currently, Plasma Cannons do 1150-1501.5 damage every 4.1 seconds, without factoring in any Damage multipliers. That's only 280 DPS at the Standard tier, and still only 366.21 DPS at Prototype. A PRO Plasma Cannon deals less than half the DPS a Standard Swarm Launcher does. That's ****** up. Even if we max out every reload and charge time skill, and increase the damage as much as we can with a Gallente Commando and Damage mods... We still only get 696.63 DPS. Still less than a Standard Swarm Launcher on any suit. This is rediculous.
So let's increase Plasma Cannons to Swarm levels of DPS (or similar).
1.) Buff Damage. By a ******* lot. An Allotek Plasma Cannon should outDPS a PRO Swarm launcher, without having to factor in any other multipliers. It just should. Period. With this in mind, an Allotek Plasma Cannon should deal 3653.1 direct damage.
Home at Last <3
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a brackers
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
92
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Posted - 2015.01.20 00:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:A Swarm Luncher outputs 1040-1248 damage every 1.4 seconds without factoring any Damage multipliers, just base damage. That's a total of 742-891 DPS, depending on tier.
Currently, Plasma Cannons do 1150-1501.5 damage every 4.1 seconds, without factoring in any Damage multipliers. That's only 280 DPS at the Standard tier, and still only 366.21 DPS at Prototype. A PRO Plasma Cannon deals less than half the DPS a Standard Swarm Launcher does. That's ****** up. Even if we max out every reload and charge time skill, and increase the damage as much as we can with a Gallente Commando and Damage mods... We still only get 696.63 DPS. Still less than a Standard Swarm Launcher on any suit. This is rediculous.
So let's increase Plasma Cannons to Swarm levels of DPS (or similar).
1.) Buff Damage. By a ******* lot. An Allotek Plasma Cannon should outDPS a PRO Swarm launcher, without having to factor in any other multipliers. It just should. Period. With this in mind, an Allotek Plasma Cannon should deal 3653.1 direct damage. That would puts its DPS on par with a Kaalakiota SL.
This would mean that an Plasma Cannon would OHK or 2-shot ANY vehicles. Any tank would just die if they go shot in th rear. ADSes would always instapop. LAVs too. And you know what? That's ******* reasonable...
The problem with this is its ridiculous compared to forge guns. Compare your dps to assault forge guns and come up with a more reasonable damage per shot for the plasma cannon. The second problem is how little time per shot you have to expose yourself, 0.45 sec is ridiculously short and it should be possible for a tank/ads to kill u before u kill it at least 50% in 1 on 1.
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2320
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Posted - 2015.01.20 01:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:A Swarm Luncher outputs 1040-1248 damage every 1.4 seconds without factoring any Damage multipliers, just base damage. That's a total of 742-891 DPS, depending on tier.
Currently, Plasma Cannons do 1150-1501.5 damage every 4.1 seconds, without factoring in any Damage multipliers. That's only 280 DPS at the Standard tier, and still only 366.21 DPS at Prototype. A PRO Plasma Cannon deals less than half the DPS a Standard Swarm Launcher does. That's ****** up. Even if we max out every reload and charge time skill, and increase the damage as much as we can with a Gallente Commando and Damage mods... We still only get 696.63 DPS. Still less than a Standard Swarm Launcher on any suit. This is rediculous.
So let's increase Plasma Cannons to Swarm levels of DPS (or similar).
1.) Buff Damage. By a ******* lot. An Allotek Plasma Cannon should outDPS a PRO Swarm launcher, without having to factor in any other multipliers. It just should. Period. With this in mind, an Allotek Plasma Cannon should deal 3653.1 direct damage. That would puts its DPS on par with a Kaalakiota SL.
This would mean that an Plasma Cannon would OHK or 2-shot ANY vehicles. Any tank would just die if they go shot in th rear. ADSes would always instapop. LAVs too. And you know what? That's ******* reasonable... The problem with this is its ridiculous compared to forge guns. Compare your dps to assault forge guns and come up with a more reasonable damage per shot for the plasma cannon. The second problem is how little time per shot you have to expose yourself, 0.45 sec is ridiculously short and it should be possible for a tank/ads to kill u before u kill it at least 50% in 1 on 1.
Ishukone Assault Forge Gun DPS: 500 The IAFG also has a vastly superior range advantage, is techically fully automatic, has a faster projectile with no drop, and has a 4 round magazine. Generally a lower skill requirement and longer range. Both of which make perfect reasons why they PLC should do more damage/DPS.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Home at Last <3
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a brackers
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
92
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Posted - 2015.01.20 18:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:a brackers wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:A Swarm Luncher outputs 1040-1248 damage every 1.4 seconds without factoring any Damage multipliers, just base damage. That's a total of 742-891 DPS, depending on tier.
Currently, Plasma Cannons do 1150-1501.5 damage every 4.1 seconds, without factoring in any Damage multipliers. That's only 280 DPS at the Standard tier, and still only 366.21 DPS at Prototype. A PRO Plasma Cannon deals less than half the DPS a Standard Swarm Launcher does. That's ****** up. Even if we max out every reload and charge time skill, and increase the damage as much as we can with a Gallente Commando and Damage mods... We still only get 696.63 DPS. Still less than a Standard Swarm Launcher on any suit. This is rediculous.
So let's increase Plasma Cannons to Swarm levels of DPS (or similar).
1.) Buff Damage. By a ******* lot. An Allotek Plasma Cannon should outDPS a PRO Swarm launcher, without having to factor in any other multipliers. It just should. Period. With this in mind, an Allotek Plasma Cannon should deal 3653.1 direct damage. That would puts its DPS on par with a Kaalakiota SL.
This would mean that an Plasma Cannon would OHK or 2-shot ANY vehicles. Any tank would just die if they go shot in th rear. ADSes would always instapop. LAVs too. And you know what? That's ******* reasonable... The problem with this is its ridiculous compared to forge guns. Compare your dps to assault forge guns and come up with a more reasonable damage per shot for the plasma cannon. The second problem is how little time per shot you have to expose yourself, 0.45 sec is ridiculously short and it should be possible for a tank/ads to kill u before u kill it at least 50% in 1 on 1. Ishukone Assault Forge Gun DPS: 500 The IAFG also has a vastly superior range advantage, is techically fully automatic, has a faster projectile with no drop, and has a 4 round magazine. Generally a lower skill requirement and longer range. Both of which make perfect reasons why they PLC should do more damage/DPS. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
I did not say they should have the same or less dps than a forge gun. Just not rediculously more. Afterall it is a light weapon designed for high damage at short ranges.
Also if you count the forge guns charge time as a 'reload' then the forge gun and plc dont have too different rof's especially considering the forge still has to reload as well.
Anyway this is about swarms, not plc or forge
Proto dropship pilot
The sandbox shooter
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Derrith Erador
Heaven's Lost Property
3318
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Posted - 2015.01.20 19:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:A Swarm Luncher outputs 1040-1248 damage every 1.4 seconds without factoring any Damage multipliers, just base damage. That's a total of 742-891 DPS, depending on tier.
Currently, Plasma Cannons do 1150-1501.5 damage every 4.1 seconds, without factoring in any Damage multipliers. That's only 280 DPS at the Standard tier, and still only 366.21 DPS at Prototype. A PRO Plasma Cannon deals less than half the DPS a Standard Swarm Launcher does. That's ****** up. Even if we max out every reload and charge time skill, and increase the damage as much as we can with a Gallente Commando and Damage mods... We still only get 696.63 DPS. Still less than a Standard Swarm Launcher on any suit. This is rediculous.
So let's increase Plasma Cannons to Swarm levels of DPS (or similar).
1.) Buff Damage. By a ******* lot. An Allotek Plasma Cannon should outDPS a PRO Swarm launcher, without having to factor in any other multipliers. It just should. Period. With this in mind, an Allotek Plasma Cannon should deal 3653.1 direct damage. That would puts its DPS on par with a Kaalakiota SL.
This would mean that an Plasma Cannon would OHK or 2-shot ANY vehicles. Any tank would just die if they go shot in th rear. ADSes would always instapop. LAVs too. And you know what? That's ******* reasonable... But what isn't reasonable is that 80% of all AV I see is swarms. Saying there isn't anything wrong with this weapon is just stupid.
99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg
Oh yeah?! Well, I love redheads.
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