Ok, I'm going to say my observations and personal thoughts about swarms and I'll prepare to take the flak.

Vehicle used and fitting:
Gunnlogi, 5300 shield / 1500 armor
2x Complex Heavy Shield Extender
1x Complex Shield Hardener

1x Enhanced PG Upgrade
1x Complex CPU Upgrade

1x XT-201 Missile Launcher
2x 20GJ Particle Accelerator

Opponent: MLT/STD Swarm Launcher with AV starter fit / STD basic dropsuit
Observations: Approximately one eigth of total shield lost per volley. No hardener needed to engage and kill or escape beyond lock range. Easy to deal with multiple opponents.

Opponent: PRO Swarm Launcher with non-Commando dropsuit
Observations: Approximately one quarter of total unhardened shield lost per volley. At least three swarm volleys are successfully launched and hit per each engagement. Shield hardener is a must. Engaging a single opponent without the help of gunners is risky and must have cover nearby for a last minute retreat. Engagement is not an option with more than one opponent. Threshold of reatreating with skilled gunners is at 3 or more opponents.

Opponent: PRO Swarm Launcher with Min Commando dropsuit
Observations: Approximately one third of total unhardened shield lost per volley. Engagement is highly in the opponent's favor. About two whole clips can be launched before outside of lock range. Survivability is determined by local terrain and objects. Gunners can help reduce the risk involved when engaging a single opponent. Multiple opponents are deadly unless cover can be reached within the first or second volley.

Observations on swarm behavior: swarms still track a recent position of your vehicle and not your current position. Completely possible for swarms to hit you for a brief period after you went into cover. Invisible swarms are still a common issue and misjudging incoming damage is easy to do in those scenarios and sometimes even deadly.

Some notes to consider: observations based on engagements initiating with opponents within a grenade's toss. As such, AV / flux grenades are a popular combination with swarms. Another important thing to note is that AV users almost always have first strike capability, meaning that my hardener isn't online for the first hit. Popular combo is to launch a swarm and throw an AV / flux grenade to achieve maximum first strike damage, sometimes taking out as much as half of my total unhardened shield.

Personal thoughts: based on how the swarm works, it deals too much damage for what the user has to do. Swarm tracking should also always be directly towards the current position; managing to get into cover at the last possible moment and breaking line of sight with the swarms should "drag" them into the cover instead of going around and still manage to hit you. Invisible swarms is a problem that still needs to be fixed.

Onto the dropsuits and swarm tiers. I feel that for a fully proto fit Gunnlogi for max tank should easily withstand militia and standard level swarms from starter fits and low-skillpoint dropsuits, just as I had observed. Going on the complete other side of the spectrum, with proto swarms and Min Commandos, those are just overkill, again based on the required amount of user input. A personal complaint about commandos is that they sacrifice nothing against other infantry when equipped with swarms due to their two light weapon slots and their bonuses.

I think that the maximum amount of damage a swarm user can achieve should be at the current level of damage achievable by a non-Commando. Way too much damage can be currently achieved given the reliability of swarms. I'll often times focus on my opponent for a few seconds while I shoot off my missile volley and look back to see the majority of my shield gone.

People expect missles launched by infantry to hurt your tank because that is what happens in other games and in movies
It does not matter if this expectation is silly or not.
There is rage when expectations are not met.

But it's not fair when 5ft long rockets with explosive warheads the size of a beachball kill infantry.



So you made many people hate tanks by taking your proto tank to a pub match and slaughtering the noobs as thy tried to gang up on your tank , They expected to win but they did not so you made many ETERNAL enemies that will always demand AV to be buffed.

A PRO weapon doesn't turn a STD suit into the PRO suit; the same applies to vehicles, where a PRO turret doesn't turn a STD vehicle hull into a PRO hull. This "PRO vehicle" BS is exactly that: BS. It's a myth put forth by infantry to try to get the two on equal footing for the purposes of complaining. Yes, it's "PRO AV vs STD" tanks, but that's missing the point.

This makes it pointless to make arguments that prove swarms are overpowered, easy to use , and threaten things worth a lot more ISK , Because even though your arguments make logical sense for most people a game is about feelings and not thoughts so any thoughts will not update feelings.

An explosive AV weapon is doing ~1766 damage in that one volley against shield. A forge gets that in a direct hit; you wouldn't like it if that was the splash damage itself.


TL DR ; the infantry that tried to hurt your tank but failed to do any damage will hate you forever and nothing will change their
minds.

That's because they have an irrational fear and hatred of vehicles.

av don't need to comment on this thread, the op has done a perfect job illustrating the mindset and expectations of a mediocre tanker.

no surprise that this deranged arrogance and overinflated sense of self-worth comes from a scripture quoting amarrian.

actually this guy never tested anything, or atleast not properly, the numbers are way off. the only way his "approximation" could be correct is if he let himself hit in the weakspots on purpose.

gunlogi with 2 complex heavy extenders will have 314 SHIELD HP left after being hit by 4 full volleys by proto minmando with 2 complex mods and proto swarms. ONE THIRD? not even close...

gunlogi with 2 complex heavy extenders will have 589 SHIELD HP left after being hit by 4 full volleys on any other suit with 3 complex mods and proto swarms. ONE QUARTER PER VOLLEY? almost.

with an active hardener up and two complex heavy extenders the gunlogi can take 7 missiles volleys to the face and will still have a sliver of shield hp left if hit by proto minmando with 2 complex mods and proto swarms.

just saying.

There are other factors to consider other than suit, proto vs adv or basic, and damage mods. Such as profiencies, explosive damage vs shields, how many missiles in the vollies actually made contact (instead of hitting a wall or other obstruction), if they were using Aurum gear to circumvent the need for level 5 for a suit/weapon etc.

So I think you may have jumped the gun at this one...

Good maths though.

Edit: Just want to clarify I never stated that I agree with the OP just wanted to break people out of this white room mentality that seems to be more common than common sense.

Still seems like you are using a whole bunch of white room ****. Maybe this is his results maybe not but we can't call fake every time someone over/under estimates/exaggerate their results.

perfect job of illustrating the mindset and expectations of a mediocre tank driver.

while limiting the ability of hardeners or making it more difficult to equip one.

you think a lot of ads butt hurt comes from having to fear militia swarms? what it they lowed the militia swarm clip to 2 volleys then reload instead of 3 volleys we might see less of these type of posts? the starter fit/no sp invested militia swarmer will still get her/his well deserved +75 wp for damage, and the ads pilot, unless super scrubby, will get a chance to fly away.

my bad, been reading so many swarm threads that mixed this one up, he's talking about tankers, still might apply though

Increase Swarm speed slightly,

Reserved.

If it takes me and a gunner to pose a threat to infantry, it should then require two of you to pose a threat.

That is completely out of context.