Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2265
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Posted - 2015.01.15 06:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, I'm going to say my observations and personal thoughts about swarms and I'll prepare to take the flak.
Vehicle used and fitting:
Gunnlogi, 5300 shield / 1500 armor
2x Complex Heavy Shield Extender
1x Complex Shield Hardener
1x Enhanced PG Upgrade
1x Complex CPU Upgrade
1x XT-201 Missile Launcher
2x 20GJ Particle Accelerator
Opponent: MLT/STD Swarm Launcher with AV starter fit / STD basic dropsuit
Observations: Approximately one eigth of total shield lost per volley. No hardener needed to engage and kill or escape beyond lock range. Easy to deal with multiple opponents.
Opponent: PRO Swarm Launcher with non-Commando dropsuit
Observations: Approximately one quarter of total unhardened shield lost per volley. At least three swarm volleys are successfully launched and hit per each engagement. Shield hardener is a must. Engaging a single opponent without the help of gunners is risky and must have cover nearby for a last minute retreat. Engagement is not an option with more than one opponent. Threshold of reatreating with skilled gunners is at 3 or more opponents.
Opponent: PRO Swarm Launcher with Min Commando dropsuit
Observations: Approximately one third of total unhardened shield lost per volley. Engagement is highly in the opponent's favor. About two whole clips can be launched before outside of lock range. Survivability is determined by local terrain and objects. Gunners can help reduce the risk involved when engaging a single opponent. Multiple opponents are deadly unless cover can be reached within the first or second volley.
Observations on swarm behavior: swarms still track a recent position of your vehicle and not your current position. Completely possible for swarms to hit you for a brief period after you went into cover. Invisible swarms are still a common issue and misjudging incoming damage is easy to do in those scenarios and sometimes even deadly.
Some notes to consider: observations based on engagements initiating with opponents within a grenade's toss. As such, AV / flux grenades are a popular combination with swarms. Another important thing to note is that AV users almost always have first strike capability, meaning that my hardener isn't online for the first hit. Popular combo is to launch a swarm and throw an AV / flux grenade to achieve maximum first strike damage, sometimes taking out as much as half of my total unhardened shield.
Personal thoughts: based on how the swarm works, it deals too much damage for what the user has to do. Swarm tracking should also always be directly towards the current position; managing to get into cover at the last possible moment and breaking line of sight with the swarms should "drag" them into the cover instead of going around and still manage to hit you. Invisible swarms is a problem that still needs to be fixed.
Onto the dropsuits and swarm tiers. I feel that for a fully proto fit Gunnlogi for max tank should easily withstand militia and standard level swarms from starter fits and low-skillpoint dropsuits, just as I had observed. Going on the complete other side of the spectrum, with proto swarms and Min Commandos, those are just overkill, again based on the required amount of user input. A personal complaint about commandos is that they sacrifice nothing against other infantry when equipped with swarms due to their two light weapon slots and their bonuses.
I think that the maximum amount of damage a swarm user can achieve should be at the current level of damage achievable by a non-Commando. Way too much damage can be currently achieved given the reliability of swarms. I'll often times focus on my opponent for a few seconds while I shoot off my missile volley and look back to see the majority of my shield gone.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2272
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Posted - 2015.01.15 16:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Here's some math, with max skills and Min Commando:
Swarm lock time: 1.05s
Swarm reload time: 2.87s
Swarm damage w/ 2 complex damage mods: 1247 unhardened shield / volley
Ok, so I was wrong about Min Commandos dealing one third of total shield damage, but it's still just under a quarter of my total shields.
With first strike damage, I'm left with 4053 shield and I turn on my hardener and start driving to get out of lock range from a standstill position; Gunnlogi speed is 19.5 m/s, so it would take me a little over 9 seconds to get out of range. So how much damage can that Min Commando theoretically do?
2.10 seconds to launch the rest of the clip plus a small delay in retargetting, dealing 1496 shield damage, bringing me down to 2557 shield.
2.87 seconds to reload.
A little less than 4 seconds remain, enough time to launch three more volleys, dealing 2247 damage.
I'm left with 310 shield when I finally get out of lock range. That's against only one Min Commando. Against two, I'm into armor after their first clip. Also, this is if they are standing still. A Min Commando has a base movement speed of 4.25 m/s, which means I'm only increasing our distance at 15.25 m/s, requiring 11.5 seconds to escape lock range, enough time to ensure that 2 full volleys are launched for the single Min Commando, also reducing the skill level needed to decrease reload time.
This is not balanced, considering the anti-infantry power of the HAV in question. One man can nearly destroy the tankiest HAV fit possible, whereas it requires at least one gunner in the HAV to be successful at anti-infantry, which makes two people minimum in the HAV. Those of you saying that one person should be able to kill any other person are wrong and overlooking the aspect of how much damage can one person deal to the other versus how much damage they receive. If I by myself don't pose much of a threat to you, then you shouldn't a big threat to me either. If it takes me and a gunner to pose a threat to infantry, it should then require two of you to pose a threat.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
2275
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Posted - 2015.01.15 20:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Lazer Fo Cused wrote:1. Pilot uses math - Its super effective
2. The SL needs a big injection of skilled added to it or just delete the no skill required weapon We could always add in laser guided missiles, but many pilots seem to hate this idea more.
By laser guided, you mean that swarm users would have to actively aim at their target instead of the current fire and forget system that does all the work for you? That's exactly what I'd like to see, and I'm sure many other pilots wouldn't disagree either.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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