DUST Search - Solution to PC District Timers

Thor Odinson42 wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Thor Odinson42 wrote:

I guess my biggest concern though, when do the battles occur?

Do we still have to wait 24 hours? Or are we talking go time during these windows?

I've actually be latching onto the idea that it's still a 24 hour wait time, but the entire conquest happens at once. So If the attacker has 3 MCCs they're going to use for the attack, you wait 24 hours, the battle starts, and then you fight as many battles as it takes for one side to run out of MCCs. So yeah its a 1 day wait still but the conquest of a district happens in 1 day (potentially) instead of over the course of multiple days like it used to.

What is the concern for the 24 hour advance notice? I understand it, but given that we only have 16 v 16 I think this advance notice gives too much time to call in ringers.

I don't believe it creates a situation where corporations have to be prepared to field multiple teams and fight their battles. To me if you have multiple MCCs hitting a target in 24 hours it just means the all star team has more stuff to kill when the time comes.

Maybe I'm just hung up on this to the point I'm unable to see the big picture. I really am just hoping that we have a system that allows for 1000s of players to participate instead of dozens when the incentives are added.


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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4382	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:30:00 - [1] - Quote In my strong dislike for the concept of Locked Timers, I've come up with an alternative solution to discourage many of the district timer behaviors we've seen in the past. Districts are protected by a Shield which is capable of protecting the Districts for 12 hours a day. The shield is powered by some sort of fuel which can also fuel the shield for an additional 11 hours a day. That is to say that With enough fuel, a district has an attack window of 1 hour every day. The only way to generate fuel is to earn it by fighting battles, however the fuel will only drop during battles that take place during the current attack window. ~This means that timers must be set to times where a corporation's players are actively playing or they will not generate sufficient fuel to power the shields~ Fuel earned will automatically be applied to all districts that have an open attack window during that time. Meaning that if multiple districts overlap, the fuel will be split evenly amongst them. ~This requires higher levels of player activity during times where districts are stacked together as more fuel will be required for multiple districts~ If a district receives insufficient fuel for the day, 2 things will happen. 1. Profit Generation from the district will be reduced, relative to the % fuel deficiency. 2. The size of the Attack Window will increase. Increased amount is relative to % fuel deficiency. Multiple days of deficiency will cause the window to increase even more. ~This means that corporations with insufficient numbers or player activity compared to the number of districts owned, will have districts that become increasingly difficult to defend due to a large attack window~ However, as the window increases in size, the amount of time available to generate fuel each day increases proportionally. ~This allows corporations to "recover" more easily from a dilated Attack Window, and also allows corporations who are fine with a larger window, to have more spread out activity.~ Note that Attack Windows cannot be larger than 12 hours and cannot be smaller than 1 hour. Required fuel would be based off a reasonable amount of play for an hour each day, based off of an appropriate number of players for each district held. Additional consideration would be to allow fuel gathering up to an hour before and after the Attack Window, to make a softer gathering window and compensate for discrepancies in battle duration. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4382	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:36:00 - [2] - Quote Lore Excuse: Fuel Dropped is unstable and must be inserted into District Defense Relays almost immediately before it breaks down. However fuel can only be added while the relays are offline, so only fuel generated while the relays are down and the attack window is open can be used to power defenses. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4385	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:43:00 - [3] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I love you man brohug "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4385	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:50:00 - [4] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I guess my biggest concern though, when do the battles occur? Do we still have to wait 24 hours? Or are we talking go time during these windows? I've actually be latching onto the idea that it's still a 24 hour wait time, but the entire conquest happens at once. So If the attacker has 3 MCCs they're going to use for the attack, you wait 24 hours, the battle starts, and then you fight as many battles as it takes for one side to run out of MCCs. So yeah its a 1 day wait still but the conquest of a district happens in 1 day (potentially) instead of over the course of multiple days like it used to. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4385	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:16:00 - [5] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I guess my biggest concern though, when do the battles occur? Do we still have to wait 24 hours? Or are we talking go time during these windows? I've actually be latching onto the idea that it's still a 24 hour wait time, but the entire conquest happens at once. So If the attacker has 3 MCCs they're going to use for the attack, you wait 24 hours, the battle starts, and then you fight as many battles as it takes for one side to run out of MCCs. So yeah its a 1 day wait still but the conquest of a district happens in 1 day (potentially) instead of over the course of multiple days like it used to. What is the concern for the 24 hour advance notice? I understand it, but given that we only have 16 v 16 I think this advance notice gives too much time to call in ringers. I don't believe it creates a situation where corporations have to be prepared to field multiple teams and fight their battles. To me if you have multiple MCCs hitting a target in 24 hours it just means the all star team has more stuff to kill when the time comes. Maybe I'm just hung up on this to the point I'm unable to see the big picture. I really am just hoping that we have a system that allows for 1000s of players to participate instead of dozens when the incentives are added. Well heres kinda how I see it. If a corporation wants to hold a a single district, it needs 16 PC-qualified people to fight the battles. If there isn't advanced notice, those same 16 guys have to be online, ready to go, every single day. That becomes a chore, and isn't really fun. So even if you have say 8 alternates, that's 24 guys needed to hold 1 district and have it remain "fun". Now if you want to hold 2? The number of required people quickly goes a little insane. I mean attackers are setting the effective time of attack, so they're going to be prepped to launch the best guys they have at you. I think it may be a little unreasonable to expect every corp that wants to defend a district to have their A team on every single day. If battles were like....6 guys? Sure, I could see very short notice. But with 16, you simply gotta have some sort of warning period. I do get what you're saying though, and it's a tricky problem to solve for that particular aspect of battle generation and I honestly don't have a perfect solution for you. This thread was more about getting away from the aweful notion of fixed timers, which unfortunately also fails to solve the issue you've brought up. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4385	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:17:00 - [6] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Imagine the moral if Corp A sends 4 MCCs to attack Corp B and it ends up being the best team Team Players ever fielded. I think after the second battle you'd have people in Corp A telling their FC to go F himself. Well I think the attackers can choose to withdraw and stop attacking if they feel they can't win the next battles. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4386	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:34:00 - [7] - Quote To clarify Thor, I'd like to see where this Raiding mechanics branches out. I think raids, while incapable of flipping a district, should happen on the fly during your open window with very little notice. That being said if you neglect your district and have a huge attack window, expect to be continually pounded by everyone multiple times a day. They wont take your district, but they'll steal all of your profits. I think lower risk battles like this can happen on the fly and don't require much notice, also allows for less experienced players to get a taste of PC without putting a corporation's districts on the line for the sake of training. It also allows for large zerg corps to be a real pain in the ass if they want to. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4387	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:49:00 - [8] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: To clarify Thor, I'd like to see where this Raiding mechanics branches out. I think raids, while incapable of flipping a district, should happen on the fly during your open window with very little notice. That being said if you neglect your district and have a huge attack window, expect to be continually pounded by everyone multiple times a day. They wont take your district, but they'll steal all of your profits. I think lower risk battles like this can happen on the fly and don't require much notice, also allows for less experienced players to get a taste of PC without putting a corporation's districts on the line for the sake of training. It also allows for large zerg corps to be a real pain in the ass if they want to. If this becomes a thing, I wouldn't be concerned. I think the concept of raiding is a very useful tool. There are a lot of important to details that have to be worked out to prevent abuse and still make it fun, but I think if properly designed it will scratch that itch that many players are interested in PC but not experienced enough yet. I think a conquest battle should be a huge deal, because its a "We're throwing everything we've got at each other to see who's the best". Raids offer a PC-like experience that allows a corporation to train newer players without as much risk involved. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4387	Posted - 2015.01.14 20:25:00 - [9] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Ideas and things This is a decent idea. It allows smaller corps to participate cleanly. The system might end up hitting some level of over-complication bar though, fair warning. Our existing system, mind you, is also often too hard to understand. Thor Odinson42 wrote: What is the concern for the 24 hour advance notice? Um... are you kidding me? People need to know to be online, so they don't have to no life the game to participate. Molon Labe's ever-present crowd appears again. o_o And yes, calling in ringers is gameplay. Yeah it could do with some polish and simplification if possible. The main thing to take away from it is that players are allowed to set their timers where they want, but have to have players actually playing at that time to maintain the district, otherwise they suffer from increasingly difficult defense conditions. It aims to accomplish what fixed timers do, without all of the rigidity. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4390	Posted - 2015.01.14 20:42:00 - [10] - Quote Lets not turn this thread into bickering about 24 hour notice ^_^ It's really not what the thread is about. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4390	Posted - 2015.01.14 21:12:00 - [11] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Lets not turn this thread into bickering about 24 hour notice ^_^ It's really not what the thread is about. It's hard not to. It's a thread about timers that finally gets close to addressing the number 1A (1B being no way to team deploy for training) issue that led to PC being played by a small tiny little fraction of the playerbase. I'm not going to continue to beat the dead horse. But I will say that nothing will change if it's a bunch of shiny new features but it's still show up in 24-48 hours and fight the best ringers that you can hire. I don't see anything that changes that being proposed. I don't particularly have an issue with hiring people to assist you, contract/mercenary work is not all that uncommon in New Eden. The reason ringers became so prevelent before was because the ISK faucet produced so much money, that those who held the land were able to hire out 100% of the time if they wanted. However with a raiding system in place, assuming its not exploitable, you will have to defend your district's resources on the fly. I think that much is reasonable since at worst you don't have enough people on and you get stomped in a raid, you only lose out on profitability for the day. However I think for district capture you need to be able to have time to ready and field the best team you possibly can since it's for the biggest prize, ownership of the district. So for raids? Force people to be on during your Attack Window, but you don't always need your best players. But for District Capture? Give people the time to get their best people in on the job. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4391	Posted - 2015.01.14 21:24:00 - [12] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: But you are putting a lot of hope in something that hasn't bet brought forward yet. And I'm not sure the raiding is being considered as a mechanic to ensure that small elite corps can't dominate the landscape. Somehow that seems to be lost on people. I completely agree, and it's a complicated problem and as I said I dont have a clean solution for you right now. As I said before, the point of this thread was not to address how battles are generated, but more so my desperate attempt to stop the push for fixed timers. So while I'm not not putting my foot down on 24 hour timers, the waiting period on when the attack actually takes place has no bearing on how attack windows are generated and what it takes to maintain them. I'm not trying to dismiss or disagree with your statement that waiting times are a serious problem to consider, but also keep in mind that I'm trying to tackle the issues one by one ^_^ "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4392	Posted - 2015.01.14 21:34:00 - [13] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Well, blunt honesty, a system like this is probably a whole release on it's own, or a big part of one. And I'm hoping to get fixed timers as a tack-on to one of the corporate warbarge releases as a quick fix. Something I most definitely still intend to push for. Though if you can sell a worthy enough proposal to then replace that with something more dynamic that doesn't suck as bad as the current timer system, I am for it. Well I don't really want to bicker with you about fixed timers since we've already been there done that. Assuming no one shows up and points out a critical hole in this idea, I'll be continue to refine and document it in an easier to understand fashion (because PDFs with pictures are fun) "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4398	Posted - 2015.01.15 15:11:00 - [14] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I really do like this idea. I understand some criticism about complexity, but in effect it's simply if you aren't active in-game at the timers you set then your districts become more and more vulnerable and also don't produce resources. Pretty much. The further you move your timer away from when your players are active, the more impossible to defend and less profitable that district becomes. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4399	Posted - 2015.01.15 15:54:00 - [15] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: I like the idea, but let's say Corp B can only be active at a certain time due to work and family and other RL stuff. And on top of that lived in a time zone that made it very rare for them to be able to attack during these windows. What would you do/suggest to make it easier for this corp to be able to actively participate? Well typically speaking a corporation attacks other corporations that have a window that is convenient for them, so they would simply be attacking corps that are also active during those times. I guess I'm not clear on what your concern is. Are you worried that if a corp has weird hours of activity that they wont be able to find a defender corp with a timer that is convenient for them? EDIT: Jonny D Buelle wrote: Pay No Attention, I dun goofed and I apologize. I kinda had a feeling you did ^_^ no worries. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4400	Posted - 2015.01.16 06:16:00 - [16] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: Scale the timers by the amount of districts you own As an example and before a single comment is posted trying to tear this apart in the details this is just an example come up with a better one rather than just ** posting You own 1 district you set your timers for 24 hours You own 2 districts you set your timers for 12 hours You own 3 districts you set your timers for 8 hours You own 4 districts you set your timers for 6 hours Etc etc in the end a 16 man corp can hold districts but they amount they can hold will be dependent on their ability to field teams or use freinds This really won't solve anything, as it could easily be avoided by creating alt corporations to ensure that each dummy corp holds only 1 district in order to maintain the 24 hour timer. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net