|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2783
   |
Posted - 2015.01.17 20:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I am working on a proposal involving re-introduction of V/AV balance from chromosome and modify what has frequently been referred to as too short of a TTK in HAV vs. HAV engagements
Of course, more damage for AV. Rattati told me he's not touching AV right now, so the damage is staying the same.
Since I have asked for vehicle driver input repeatedly for advice on numbers so that HAV vs HAV engagements are not too short, and have gotten none..
We keep giving it, and people keep ignoring it, but I'll say it again: Chromosome balance was the best as far as AV/V went, because they were a deterrent, as they should be, and tanks beat the hell out of each other. I agree with everybody that the damage for that build was too high, and it was far better when Uprising 1.0 was deployed, but the PG skill nerf was the start of the 80-¦ down slope towards vehicles becoming next to useless.
And since no one has provided numbers and input pertaining to dropship balance...
Numerous current and former ADS pilots (Taka and myself) have provided ideas, but again, nobody listens. I put in my vehicle hull thread that the ADS will be the fastest ship in the game, upping flight speed to 55m/s to give them a greater chance to outrun or outmaneuver swarms.
If no one steps up to help me run these numbers for flaws, and to insure that HAV vs. HAV engagements are fun and there are meaningful fights with HAVs and dropships on the field I am setting a deadline.
Tank v tank is terrible; armor gets shafted and shield is the master race. You need a lot of experience to not get melted in armor in 3 seconds. ADS isn't bad, but once they get right above you and you're far away from overhead cover, you're dead.
If I have received no meaningful input by 9:00 AM Pacific standard time on thursday the 15th of January, I will take it as your (the vehicle community) blessing to adjust the numbers as I see fit.
Of course you want more AV damage.
I need actual numbers and math, not vague suggestions like "it needs to work kinda like..."
History: pilots provided the math on how much damage AV put out, and infantry always said "working as intended," "that's fair" and "HTFU." Pilots even proved that when the PRO TAR was OP, it was on par with a large blaster turret. Infantry of course said that was fine.
The HAV bring back initiative is something I want, and it's something that will benefit the game as a whole.
Of course it will benefit the game, but only if vehicles are worth the SP and ISK required to get the PRO turrets and modules, and the hulls to level for the maximum bonus.
But I want pilot input on how this proposal should go.
See above
Any suggestion that AV needs to be marginalized will be summarily dismissed, V/AV values are being set at the chromosome build level for the purposes of this propopsal.
We've never said marginalized or made useless, we just said it should be a deterrent. The lock on range nerf is the only nerf the swarms have suffered that was needed. Obvious damage reduction was needed because the HP potential for tanks was reduced by quite a lot.
Of course you're going to poo-poo all over this.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2784
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 20:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Isn't Chromosone considered the Dark Age?
Glorious age, when tanks melted tanks and many millions of ISK was lost between pilots, per match.
When tanks roamed the map near unkillable?
If you're talking about MLT AV, then yeah, unkillable. If another tank was on the field, that bothersome blaster was as good as dead.
If you want to balance vehicles you need to,
1) Designate an actual role to each vehicle
Designed around skirmish 1.0.
2) Increase player count so vehicles become useful
Larger map areas would be better because of the limits of PS3 hardware.
I would prefer not to have to be in a vehicle to enjoy this game afterall their is a vehicle limit and I don't want to race to get mine in first lest I end up cannon fodder to 6 enemy madrugars.
You don't like vehicles, nobody is forcing you to be in a vehicle, you have an irrational fear and hatred of vehicles so all pilots already know you hate them and want them to be removed; there's objectives indoors where you don't have to worry about vehicles.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2784
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 20:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Toobar Zoobar wrote:Not the 3 AV grenades.
3 packed Lai Dai = dead tank.
I can't accept that.
None of us can.
They were OP before okay.
2 Packed Lai Dai against an armor tank with its shields down is still almost enough to destroy it outright.
So much so that they gave me cancer.
They gave me AIDS.
And what, you want the breach forge gun to 1 shot every ADS from the sky?
Of course, because they all always want AV to have enough alpha and DoT to obliterate vehicles in 2 seconds flat. It's fair, and just need to bend over and take it.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2787
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 20:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I will be altering passive mods to be viable but less efficient.
That's how the vehicle modules were until 1.7, when they were all removed.
3 AV grenades stays.
Of course you want those to stay.
If I'm proposing chrome tanks you get to suffer chrome AV.
Chrome tanks were much more than strong enough to shrug off AV while fighting another tank.
1.7 taught the playerbase the importance of AV weapons.
1.7 was Ragnarok for vehicles.
I don't think hav dominance will have the same bite.
Tanks have never been dominant.
I used to be able to solo chrome marauders.
With a glass cannon tank, yeah. AV? No
I can teach newbies to do the same.
Not the noobs I've seen.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2787
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 20:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:I want AV to be super potent if tanks are going back to the god-mode days of chromosome.
Of course you want AV to be super potent. Might as well be able to call in a warbarge without requiring any WP at all. Tanks have never been god-mode. They were extremely powerful during Chromosome, and were very easily countered by another pilot.
Seriously, there needs to be a reason for me to neuter my infantry slaying abilities in order to have a shot at killing someone who can also easily kill me with 1/10th the shots i need to kill them.
You obviously don't tank at all, because then you'd see just how bad the blaster is.
Id like AV nades returned to their former usefulness so that we have an actual way to say "Stop sticking your blaster in here or you will die." in exchange for infantry slaying power.
Then a pair of packed Lai Dai would outright kill an armor tank with its shield down. Of course you want "former usefulness" to be more like OP nuclear baseballs.
Current AV nades are lol.
I have grenades to 5, and AV grenades are insanely pathetically easy to use.
Swarms need more damage and range,
Of course you want the easiest to use weapon in the game to do more damage and have greater range. CCP want them to be area of denial for vehicles, not map denial. There would literally be no point in using a vehicle to take another one out, but that's what you want anyway.
forge guns i can't comment on as i don't use them,
Of course you don't use forge guns, they actually require aim.
and dropships will need a survivability buff as well.
They used to have good survivability, but then the afterburner was nerfed, and swarms were buffed to travel faster. Infantry's fault.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2787
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 20:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Chrome vehicles means chrome AV across the board.
Of course, because that's what infantry wants. Easy, god-mode AV.
which means that forges and av nades go back to beast mode
Yeah, like 3 packed Lai Dai doing enough damage to an armor tank to outright destroy it.
just like the sagaris and Surya are beast mode.
That's because they were all-around improvement over the STD tanks. They also had the ADV tag, so they were absolutely better.
I will not, howwever be advocating hives being able to generate av nades like they did in chrome
Having 3 being able to do ~2000 damage each is still extremely OP.
Hilariously swarms actually have DPS I consider viable for hunting marauders in TODAY's build.
We need to see in detail what Rattati wants. Of course you'll want swarms even more powerful than they are now, to balance them around the Marauders, rather than balancing around the Madrugar and Gunnlogi.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2789
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 20:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Spkr why do you bother talking when you know I think your attitude is toxic to the game.
You consider my attitude toxic because I refuse to back down on the defense of vehicles, because I want that to be my chosen role, with all skills at level 5. I don't want to do infantry, so in that case, why should I not defend vehicles?
I'd accept input from a two hour newbie before asking for your opinion. At least most other people have made an effort to be constructive. You don't and you never have.
Of course, you'll ask for someone's opinion when they have literally no experience and don't know what they're talking about, especially the history of vehicles and AV.
So please fell free to go be bitter and butthurt elsewhere.
Nice trolling
I'll listen to the input of any other vehicle driver over yours, because all you do is mewl and whine about how everyone else is out to ruin the game for you.
Oh yeah, because merely having access to STD hulls, ADV turrets and level 3 in core skills makes someone a pilot, even though they'll use a vehicle maybe once every 10 matches. I'll use one about 85% of the time. Their advice is invalid.
I bluntly don't care at this point.
So take the initiative and stop replying to me.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2789
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:before skills wiyrkomi swarm is 430 DPS if you include base reloads.
All 4 missiles hitting in half a second is not 430.
this is before skills and damage mods.
See above
Ishukone assault forge damage before anything is 600 DPS by the chrome model, at 400 DPS with reloads accounted for.
My math is terrible, but I'm pretty sure it's far more than that. Shield recharge doesn't kick back in before the second shot is fired. Armor reps can't get back the armor that was lost before the second shot hits.
So yes, I consider swarms viable for marauder hunting.
Current swarms would melt the Marauders of old, especially on a Minmando.
Further, the Surya was inordinately more bricky than the sagaris, thanks for providing me fitting numbers to look at.
They needed to be, because swarms and AV grenades are explosive damage, and obviously had a bonus against armor.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:And Infantry still hated it, because you would get that 1 guy (Spkr, Taki) who decided that enemy tanks weren't enough, so they went round going 20+ every match because no-one could stop them.
Our aim was OP, nerf the ability to aim. Oh wait........................................................ that's been done. And nobody could stop us? It's called experience.
It'll end up like 1.6 again, if you don't have someone on your team who is a dedicated tanker EVERY Match, you loose.
What's the big deal with that?
Don't get me wrong I'm all for a shake-up on vehicles,
Yeah, like nerfing them again.
adding some variety back, both to variants, modules and layouts would be fantastic.
You don't use vehicles, why do you care?
I just don't agree with you basing your numbers off a time when vehicles were the highest tier of warfare.
They were end-game for pilots. The Type-A suits were end-game for infantry. The two are not the same.
Unless CCP are prepared to start adding in more ways to move between sockets without being skewered by 5 Madrugars, the game just becomes stagnant for infantry.
1. Cloak, 2. dropship, 3. avoid them, 4. LAV, 5. defend the objective you're already at.
So long as there are large swathes of ground with no cover or hidey holes for infantry, making vehicles 'fun' like they were in chrome will only make it fun for tank drivers.
See above
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Maddies were dealable.
That's because the idiot-proof auto-aim AV had a bonus against armor.
Honesty the concern point I have is the Surya.
An improved tank over the standard tank is OP, nerf the improved tank. Oh wait............................. that's already happened.
Part of the problem in Chrome was there was a cultural inertia where everyone REFUSED to load swarms or forges.
Nobody using AV = AV is UP, tanks are OP, nerf tanks.
But all of the non-marauder HAVs were tacklable solo.
MLT tanks piloted by noobs, yes. STD tanks piloted by real pilots, no. Nerf experience.
The Sagaris if you were a dedicated murder maniac could also be soloed with timing and effort.
Only a real, experienced pilot would go for the Marauder, so I doubt they could be soloed.
I think only three or four people ever managed to drop a surya solo, myself among them.
With the way you complain about tanks, I doubt that.
It's EHP was entirely too high.
See above. Improved tanks are OP, nerf improved tanks.
the most comparable vehicle we have now is the overtanked gunnlogi,
There is no OP Gunnlogi.
which swallows eight to ten proto forge shots before exploding.
8 to 10? That's enough to kill a Gunnlogi twice over.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
|
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
Part of the problem in Chrome was there was a cultural inertia where everyone REFUSED to load swarms or forges.
"refused" is the wrong word. I remember it like it was yesterday when I had my tripple damage modded proto swarm shooting 6 volleys at an armor tank which didnt really cared about me. then he drove off behind the hill before I could reload to kill him. I would have used my overpowered AV nades but this guy was clever enough not to get close, he didnt had to, his turrets were super effective and could wreck infantry at range. good old times, right? 
Sounds like the ability to aim, and the intelligence to not put themselves in a bad spot. Experience is OP, nerf experience.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Surya.
I'm well aware of how obnoxious the Surya was. Like I said, if I have my way that HAV's ability to soak fire is going to be dropped back near the sagaris into manageable.
How many times do pilots have to say "Rattati's vision of the Marauders is very high HP, ultra-heavy tanks that are mobile fortresses? That's going beyond not listening, outright refusing to even listen.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
There was also the problem where MLT and STD swarms where so much worse than their older brothers that even when people picked them up, it couldn't do anything even against unskilled failfits (That problem has largely been addressed).
That's because the only thing pilots have now is failfits, due to no variety.
Anyway...for helping out the Derpships...expand their PG/CPU to be near HAV levels, this will allow them to fit heavy eHP mods no problem, and largely address their survivabiltiy problems (their slot layout should be fine) as is. (maybe too drastic of a change, but through their PG especially...should help)
It's mainly the swarms traveling faster, but yes, ADV CPU and PG needs to be improved, which can be solved by the PG and CPU skills adding 5% per level, as they used to.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:dont you think this effort is futile without racial parity in terms of AV options?
No
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I'm probably going to nerfhammer the plates because the difference between 120mm and 180mm is more than a 2x multiplier, which accounts for the Surya's Ungodly ability to soak fire.
I've said before, the idiot-proof auto-aim AV has a damage bonus against armor. Pilot experience is OP, nerf experience.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Any chance you would be in favor of adding shield regen to the extenders (not a whole lot, just divide the hp by the regen time on the base hulls) just enough to maintain a shield recharge time, to provide a resemblance to eve's shield recharge?
The shield extension skill should add 2% to shield recharge per level. The extenders should never, ever decrease the shield recharge.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:
Shield Booster: the main problem with it, is that is only reliable if you are not uder attack, unlinke armor rep, shield is blocked by incoming fire, i have yet to find a balanced solution.
The only thing i've thought is to add a resistance to each pulse of the shield booster, which immediatly wear off, something between 50% and 75%.
Shield boosters used to pulse over a short period of time, including while taking damage. That model needs to be restored.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2790
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 21:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I have no issue with escaping to recover.
Vehicles should not easily recover in less time than it takes an AV Gunner to travel to a supply depot, repair and reload.
Cover is OP, nerf cover.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
|
|
| |
|