DUST Search - Make the MD the solution to sentinels

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

The sentinels are designed for point defense, but they do it far too well. Right now, a group of sentinels can hold an objective for too efficiently (especially with logistics support). The only counters right now are scouts abusing the remote explosives (the regular ones still have no arm time), and more sentinel spam. It's never good when the only way to deal with something is to use more of that something, or to abuse a broken mechanic.

I don't want to nerf sentinel base HP (yet), modules, or the HMG. I would prefer if there simply was some more reasonable counters to sentinels holding a point.

My solution would be to make splash damage weapons (like the mass driver, and locus grenades) take over the role of dealing with encamped groups of sentinels. Right now though all sentinels have resistance to splash.

Get rid of the sentinel splash-resistance bonus.

Give the sentinels a heavy weapon fitting bonus instead.

Would lead to more mass driver use (which is good for combating the current armor meta), and would be good for dealing with sentinels controlling an objective.

EDIT: For those who fear this will lead to core locus grenade spam, I really doubt the current sentinel bonus is keeping those with core locus grenades from spamming them.

EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11892	Posted - 2015.01.07 08:53:00 - [1] - Quote The sentinels are designed for point defense, but they do it far too well. Right now, a group of sentinels can hold an objective for too efficiently (especially with logistics support). The only counters right now are scouts abusing the remote explosives (the regular ones still have no arm time), and more sentinel spam. It's never good when the only way to deal with something is to use more of that something, or to abuse a broken mechanic. I don't want to nerf sentinel base HP (yet), modules, or the HMG. I would prefer if there simply was some more reasonable counters to sentinels holding a point. My solution would be to make splash damage weapons (like the mass driver, and locus grenades) take over the role of dealing with encamped groups of sentinels. Right now though all sentinels have resistance to splash. Get rid of the sentinel splash-resistance bonus. Give the sentinels a heavy weapon fitting bonus instead. Would lead to more mass driver use (which is good for combating the current armor meta), and would be good for dealing with sentinels controlling an objective. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7736	Posted - 2015.01.07 08:59:00 - [2] - Quote IMO, a turn speed reduction or lower damage output from HMGs is still in order. If only to allow for dealing with Sentinels in a more tactical way (flanking) and giving the HMG parity with the other weapons from 1.8 on. Killing their splash resistance is a buff to remote explosives and grenades as well, not just the MD. That and the fact that we'd basically be saying that you have a choice on how you deal with a Sentinel: MinMando MD Spam or Core Locus Spam.... Doesn't really give a lot of options to players on how to counter them, imo. You have four racial sentinels that can be chosen from and in this case you'd have to have someone specced solely into Mass Drivers or Core Locus Grenades and Nanohives just to deal with them. 1 Weapon as a counter to 4 Sentinels? Eh, not a good solution, imo. Sentinels, like everything in this game, need multiple hard counters to be balanced. Aeon's Links I don't run MinAssault, I run MAXASSAULT
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11893	Posted - 2015.01.07 09:10:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: IMO, a turn speed reduction or lower damage output from HMGs is still in order. If only to allow for dealing with Sentinels in a more tactical way (flanking) and giving the HMG parity with the other weapons from 1.8 on. Killing their splash resistance is a buff to remote explosives and grenades as well, not just the MD. That and the fact that we'd basically be saying that you have a choice on how you deal with a Sentinel: MinMando MD Spam or Core Locus Spam.... Doesn't really give a lot of options to players on how to counter them, imo. You have four racial sentinels that can be chosen from and in this case you'd have to have someone specced solely into Mass Drivers or Core Locus Grenades and Nanohives just to deal with them. 1 Weapon as a counter to 4 Sentinels? Eh, not a good solution, imo. Sentinels, like everything in this game, need multiple hard counters to be balanced. Yes, I am aware that it would't only effect MD the MD, but grenades and REs as well. I specifically mentioned grenades in the OP. While Minmatar commandos do get a bonus to expolosive damage, you would in no way have to use it to be effective with a mass driver. Anyone with a mass driver, or any tier locus grenade would be at the very least contribute to defeating or scaring off the sentinels. Would not be just one weapon; as you pointed out, the current splash resistance effects more than just the mass driver. Mass driver, flaylock pistol, locust grenade, flux grenades, and REs (though I do hope they fix the arm time on REs like Rattati said they were going to). Even if that is a very few selection of weapons, this is only meant to be a solution to a very specific problem, which is sentinel groups holding objectives indefinitely. Outside of enclosed objective areas, there are already counters to sentinels due to their low speed and large hitboxes. I just want an indoors solution as well. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 816	Posted - 2015.01.07 12:23:00 - [4] - Quote KA24DERT is going to have fun with this (He was battled down in a thread arguing this point a few weeks ago, then people changed their minds) Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 432	Posted - 2015.01.07 13:14:00 - [5] - Quote I still don't think that the splash resistance of the heavy is a problem. I regularly kill heavies even with my apex minmando. It's also good as a breach weapon. You just have to use it in the right way, and need other players to finish the job...
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 141	Posted - 2015.01.07 14:17:00 - [6] - Quote Plasma cannon too. Needs bigger radius and range damage 48th Special Operations Force. "As a team or alone, I dominate the battlefield."
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6178	Posted - 2015.01.07 15:14:00 - [7] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The sentinels are designed for point defense, but they do it far too well. Right now, a group of sentinels can hold an objective for too efficiently (especially with logistics support). The only counters right now are scouts abusing the remote explosives (the regular ones still have no arm time), and more sentinel spam. It's never good when the only way to deal with something is to use more of that something, or to abuse a broken mechanic. I don't want to nerf sentinel base HP (yet), modules, or the HMG. I would prefer if there simply was some more reasonable counters to sentinels holding a point. My solution would be to make splash damage weapons (like the mass driver, and locus grenades) take over the role of dealing with encamped groups of sentinels. Right now though all sentinels have resistance to splash. Get rid of the sentinel splash-resistance bonus. Give the sentinels a heavy weapon fitting bonus instead. Would lead to more mass driver use (which is good for combating the current armor meta), and would be good for dealing with sentinels controlling an objective. EDIT: For those who fear this will lead to core locus grenade spam, I really doubt the current sentinel bonus is keeping those with core locus grenades from spamming them. since vehicles have no significant splash anymore change the role bonus. and sents have a heavy weapon fitting bonus, but if you want us to run proto everything without sacrifice I won't complain. the heavy weapon fitting bonus was to counteract the reduction of CPU/PG and discourage puting rail rifles and crap on fatties. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6178	Posted - 2015.01.07 15:16:00 - [8] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: KA24DERT is going to have fun with this (He was battled down in a thread arguing this point a few weeks ago, then people changed their minds) He's not particularly good at arguing. none of his premises were worth the time of day. The ones that are he missed completely. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 747	Posted - 2015.01.07 16:02:00 - [9] - Quote Hell no, cause then every 1 would start throwing grenades at heavys like mad again. This bonus was added so that sentinels could withstand grenades without beeing killed after just 2 hits with a core locus. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1534	Posted - 2015.01.07 17:40:00 - [10] - Quote In favor.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 979	Posted - 2015.01.07 19:26:00 - [11] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: KA24DERT is going to have fun with this (He was battled down in a thread arguing this point a few weeks ago, then people changed their minds) He's not particularly good at arguing. none of his premises were worth the time of day. The ones that are he missed completely. Chutney curry tandoori? Naan Lassi! Saag paneer vindaloo. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Cassa-Nova Sky-FIRE 45	Posted - 2015.01.07 22:13:00 - [12] - Quote Would have the unintended effect of nerfing Amarr FW even further as everyone would flood the miniFW for the cheap MDs even more then normal Amarr Faction Suit Colour Schemes
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6184	Posted - 2015.01.07 22:17:00 - [13] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: KA24DERT is going to have fun with this (He was battled down in a thread arguing this point a few weeks ago, then people changed their minds) He's not particularly good at arguing. none of his premises were worth the time of day. The ones that are he missed completely. Chutney curry tandoori? Naan Lassi! Saag paneer vindaloo. Your inability to consider any part of any argument with evidence and logic, instead focusing on one thing, specifically the ONE suit DESIGNED to be the most resistant to the weapon, is an idiotic one, especially when that's one of the least commonly used sentinels. But your inability to be anything more than condescending really does make you a crapass argument. None of your points had anything to do with why I changed my mind. Quit trying to take credit for my thought processes. Now bugger off. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6184	Posted - 2015.01.07 22:18:00 - [14] - Quote Cassa-Nova wrote: Would have the unintended effect of nerfing Amarr FW even further as everyone would flood the miniFW for the cheap MDs even more then normal Funny thing... You can use the mass driver on behalf of the Amarr empire as well. Don't feed me this "nerfing facwar" crap. I play amarr facwar, and i don't lose standing for mass drivering people to death. What the hell is wrong with you that you're going to claim that it's nerfing faction warfare? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3417	Posted - 2015.01.08 04:19:00 - [15] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: I still don't think that the splash resistance of the heavy is a problem. I regularly kill heavies even with my apex minmando. It's also good as a breach weapon. You just have to use it in the right way, and need other players to finish the job... These types of posts make me angry... "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 981	Posted - 2015.01.08 04:37:00 - [16] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I still don't think that the splash resistance of the heavy is a problem. I regularly kill heavies even with my apex minmando. It's also good as a breach weapon. You just have to use it in the right way, and need other players to finish the job... These types of posts make me angry... What type of posts? Mad Syringe is simply highlighting the fact that 25% splash resistance on the highest HP suits in the game to the lowest DPS weapon in the game is a non issue. Get on his level. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3419	Posted - 2015.01.08 04:40:00 - [17] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I still don't think that the splash resistance of the heavy is a problem. I regularly kill heavies even with my apex minmando. It's also good as a breach weapon. You just have to use it in the right way, and need other players to finish the job... These types of posts make me angry... What type of posts? Mad Syringe is simply highlighting the fact that 25% splash resistance on the highest HP suits in the game to the lowest DPS weapon in the game is a non issue. Get on his level. Yeah cause he's so leet running that BPO fit cause he's so good he doesn't need anything else, and sentinels are ez for him cause he's so good at this game #Yolo420xXPLCXx5everBlazeitMeleeSwaq I think PLC is lower DPS...but still "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 3626	Posted - 2015.01.08 11:12:00 - [18] - Quote This idea is already in the air from a decent time, i think it's time to put it in game. Plus, i don't know why sentinels have 3 bonus different bonus set: heavy weapons fit reduction, splash resistance and racial bonus. Situational awareness also known as passive scan.
Miokai Zahou WarRavens Capital Punishment. 444	Posted - 2015.01.08 11:31:00 - [19] - Quote no. get good. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6193	Posted - 2015.01.08 12:39:00 - [20] - Quote shaman oga wrote: This idea is already in the air from a decent time, i think it's time to put it in game. Plus, i don't know why sentinels have 3 bonus different bonus set: heavy weapons fit reduction, splash resistance and racial bonus. Fit reduction was to offset a nerf. Splash is a role bonus (universal bonus to class) Resistances are racial bonuses. Rather like assaults get a nade fitting bonus for role, and a fitting bonus plus a weapon bonus per racial type. The fitting bonus was entirely to offset reducing pg/cpu so that proto fit sentinels cannot fit proto rail rifles and such because some nerds think that sentinels who do that are more powerful. It's a legacy from the days when commandos were almost impossible to identify as different from sentinels by looking at them. It's also the rallying cry of people who get mad when heavies swap to light weapons whenever heavy weapons get nerfed into near or total uselessness which has happened in the past because it keeps them from easily farming the crippled fatfits. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

shaman oga Dead Man's Game 3629	Posted - 2015.01.08 19:08:00 - [21] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fit reduction was to offset a nerf. I remember old PG/CPU. It was out of scale, i could fit PRO HMG, PROsidearm, Pro nades and PRO modules aswell. Back on topic, i don't think that give splash resistance to the class with most HP as ever been a good idea. Splash damage is the only thing capable of un-camp people, but if sentinel can laugh at it, then as OP said they become game breaking. Situational awareness also known as passive scan.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6221	Posted - 2015.01.08 19:24:00 - [22] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Fit reduction was to offset a nerf. I remember old PG/CPU. It was out of scale, i could fit PRO HMG, PROsidearm, Pro nades and PRO modules aswell. Back on topic, i don't think that give splash resistance to the class with most HP as ever been a good idea. Splash damage is the only thing capable of un-camp people, but if sentinel can laugh at it, then as OP said they become game breaking. First point: agreed. Second point: if the splash of the mass driver is too much (I doubt it, that thing is a beast if you set up properly but it sucks if you are a clueless berk) then all that has to be done is tweak down the splash damage by 5 point increments until you hit the sweet spot. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 11904	Posted - 2015.01.08 20:49:00 - [23] - Quote Cassa-Nova wrote: Would have the unintended effect of nerfing Amarr FW even further as everyone would flood the miniFW for the cheap MDs even more then normal Amarr gets access to laser rifles and scrambler rifles that do +20% against shields, and Minmatar are primariy shield-based. Furthrmore, you're under no obligation to use Amarr gear while in Amarr FW. Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2471	Posted - 2015.01.09 09:41:00 - [24] - Quote I feel like the splash damage is so that MD don't spell automatic death for heavies. Suppose we simply lowered the resistance to 3% per level? Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6239	Posted - 2015.01.09 10:53:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel like the splash damage is so that MD don't spell automatic death for heavies. Suppose we simply lowered the resistance to 3% per level? I think there is better design space. Let's not forget we are no longer limited to the amarr sentinel which is an armor tank. The galsent as well is vulnerable to mass drivers but even with splash resistance gone the calsent and minsent will enjoy less vulnerability than any other suit in the game to the MD until the big shield buffers go pop. You are about as likely to win with the mass driver against them as you are with a scram in a Mexican standoff with an amarr sentinel at 10m. The mass driver problem happened when fatties had a grand total of one option. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Logi Bro Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 3400	Posted - 2015.01.09 16:42:00 - [26] - Quote I'm probably biased, but I think removing the blast resistance from sentinels is a bad idea. It would create a pretty big disparity between shield and armor sentinels, from how I see it. Shield sentinels would still have good resists against explosives, while the armor sentinels would have their armor cut through like butter at 120%, not to mention that the armor sentinels are already much slower and provide a much easier target to shoot than the much more mobile shield sentinels. However, if we were going to replace the blast resistance, I would caution against an offensive bonus. The HMG fitting bonus would encourage STD sentinels to use higher tier HMGs, and we would see more heavy QQ regardless of the nerf. SP Sinks? Fixed.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12049	Posted - 2015.02.12 10:28:00 - [27] - Quote Still want Support 'Keshava' for the new Gallente HAV name in honor of Cat Merc's cat which recently passed away.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 839	Posted - 2015.02.12 10:44:00 - [28] - Quote Anecdotally, I toss in 'nades and mass driver rounds without trying to kill the heavies, but to kill the logis. Heavies tend to fall quickly after that. Nobody like having rounds explode around them, 9/10 people don't charge a barrage of MD rounds. Personnaly, a reduction to 3% seems like a good idea. Objectivley: Proto Minando + Prof 5 mass drivers negates the sentinel resist. Damage mods on the minando is a bonus vs sentinels. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7126	Posted - 2015.02.12 10:48:00 - [29] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: KA24DERT is going to have fun with this (He was battled down in a thread arguing this point a few weeks ago, then people changed their minds) He's not particularly good at arguing. none of his premises were worth the time of day. The ones that are he missed completely. Chutney curry tandoori? Naan Lassi! Saag paneer vindaloo. Quote me out of context in another thread again and I will be reporting you for harassment. You have nothing to do with my decision. AV
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7128	Posted - 2015.02.12 11:02:00 - [30] - Quote Since Rattati is looking at adding heavy weapon AV to the game and vehicles no longer do significant splash sentinels can afford to lose splash resistance. And to the argunent that armor sents will be nerfed too much: Galsents and amsents can be tanked to 1600-1700 EHP. caldari and minmatar cap out around 12-1300. This will merely make them equally difficult to kill. Plasma cannon does splash, and armor sents enjoy resistances to said damage. Shields do no. Keeping the profile resists is fine. Making the PG/CPU reduction on heavy weapons visible as the role bonus seems a no-brainer. Replacing splash resistance with weapon specific bonuses simply makes sense. This would not be a buff to RE because even STD RE OHK any sentinel even though the math says it should be impossible. Status quo maintained. Grenades are largely a nonfactor as their throw range is nerfed, the fuses are long enough that a fatty with four plates can waddle out of the radius and cooking them for two seconds means the fatty has two seconds to hose you with HMG fire. Mass drivers will be dangerous again but not OP. The EHP has been buffed since MD spam got nerfed. The only problem would be hit detection Against the HMG for MD strafers. Past that I just realized someone necro'd the thread. Why? AV



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