Except tank have less slots.
All this time and we are in the same situation.

I will say that I personally feel forge guns and plasma cannons function quite well as av but I would say that a duel complex dammage mod Mko commando with Prof 5 swarms is a bit broken lol .

Keep in mind that the "duel complex dammage mod Mko commando with Prof 5 swarms" worth way more than a MLT tank or dropship.

Vehicle users speak as if there were only these kind of AV minmando shooting at them. How can they cry about someone who spent millions of sp into swarms, suit and mods and pay its suit at least 200k ISK? It's absolutely normal that they deal enormous amount of damage to a MLT or STD vehicle.

They are proto.

Commandos can't equip nades... your tank get killed by multiple people. /thread

my armando using a plc will shred a milt tank but cant brake the shield on a proto tank. its not that they are to good or bad as a hole, the progression just needs some flattening

Too bad he seems to be pointing toward a rock, paper, scissor mode.
In 1.6 only a few tweaks were needed to bring vehicles in a very good spot, but they have decided to change them completely.

And how long does it take you to kill this minmando with your 80GJ Proto blaster? Half a second?

No, 30 seconds, but more often than not I have to jump out and chase him away with an HMG because he's bouncing all over the place. And I don't know why you're assuming I'm using a blaster. More often than not, I'm using a railgun. You can't possible understand how difficult it is to kill infantry with it, nevermind some launching AV at you, nevermind they're bouncing all over the place as if they're Flubber.
If he has the time to lock you 3 times then it's your fault if you're dead even if your tank is expensive.

[i[So it's my fault that he can get 3 volleys in less than 4 seconds? k[/i]

This minmando suit (or any proto suit) is veeery expensive too. When an enemy comes at me with a proto rifle, and shoots me for a very long time at me, I wont cry because he killed me even if I'm using my best suit!!!

Because a 200k ISK PRO suit costs more than my 400k ISK STD tank with as many complex mods as I can fit on it. k

Tankers like you think they must be gods on the battlefield because they are in a tank. You must change your mind on this.

No, you need to change your mind about AV being a damn asteroid sent down by god himself to smite us dead. Us veteran pilots know we're good enough to beat the hell out of infantry if they weren't carrying around pocket nukes with them. We also used to be able to beat the hell out of fresh academy grads when they're using MLT tanks and AUR/LP tanks, but that's over because now any random Joe Schmoe can hop into a cheap tank and actually put up a fight against me, because vehicles have been dumbed down to that point. You wouldn't like it if infantry was dumbed down to the point that if you and a fresh academy grad were standing still and firing at each other, you with your PRO weapon and him with his MLT weapon, if he were to get you down to 1/4 armor.

A single Minmando being able to nearly destroy an armor by himself is just BS. It's terrible balance.

You try hopping into a tank and showing us how you did. And you can't jump out before it blows up, either. You take the death like a man.

Well, how long does it take for minmando to get killed by a proto shotgun or a pair of knives? Half a second?
Your argument is invalid.

I don't have infantry tucked away in my tank, because I need to squeeze out every bit of CPU and PG to make my tank as effective as possible. I can't afford the CPU and PG to fit small turrets.

BTW the post is not about AV vs vehicle, it's about how things have gotten worse for vehicle player and almost nothing changed for AV.

This

i have half of the modules i had before,

More like a third or less: active reps, 180mm plates (with actual names, not basic, enhanced and complex), torque modules, passive speed modules, passive tracking computers, active tracking computers, passive damage mods, active heat sink, passive heat sink, damage control unit, passive armor hardeners, passive shield hardeners, railgun spool reduction mods, chassis weight reduction mods, remote shield boosters, remote armor reps, I'm probably missing a few more.

3 turrets and no variations,

Used to have the regular, scattered blasters, fragmented and accelerated missiles, and compressed railguns. We had more variants, but they had terrible fitting.

blueberries can still steal my vehicles

Of course, because we're not allowed to have a complete vehicle lock. Not allowed to use an Amarr logi to put down links, as well as being able to resupply them at a depot, because some random idiot is there that wants to get into any vehicle.

i can't even restock in all the maps

Dunno what you mean by that.

and i have to waste 40 seconds to change my vehicle.

That was increased because terrible AV couldn't destroy us, so they wanted us to have to spend more time holding the O button to recall a vehicle, even though we still do that in the redline. Kind of a useless thing to ask for and of course get.

After all infantry job is not that bad if you see it from this point of view.

Of course their job is easy, because they get everything they ask for as far as vehicles are concerned.

As already brought up, all Tankers can do it wait for CCP to re-release the previously pulled modules and vehicles and see how Rattatti does with balancing things. I run AV but I'd like to see HAVs get a buff without being buffed too much. Hopefully CCP do things in small steps.

So if a Gunnlogi Missile tank flanks you and insta blap's you... that is just fine?

That's the beauty of tank fights. If you're not paying attention, you're dead.

You should not be able to run around in a tank and go 20-0

But it's fair when infantry does it.

When tanks were that strong it broke most of the game modes.

When tanks were that strong, and there were multiple out from each time, we didn't bother with infantry and went after each other.

It came down to which team called in 5 tanks / ADS and set up quicker.

A pair of good pilots can wipe the floor with them.

The team with poor pilots or guys that called in LAV's lost.

That team's fault for spamming so many LAVs. Just because one team takes out 4 tanks, doesn't mean they're not going to lose them to a good pilot.

Infantry was nothing but targets for the vehicle players, could have been replaced with NPC AI for all they mattered.

Again, a competent pilot can and will destroy that tank.

I want balance, if a tank can kill me... I should be able to kill the tank.

We kill you, but then you take out pocket nukes that do ~1800 per AV grenade on bare armor/ ~3000 per shot from a PRO breach on bare armor/ ~1800 per volley from a PRO swarm on bare armor. Not very balanced.
My risk is the vehicles and other infantry while I am in a fit that can be killed by any of them.

Many of these Commando's you complain about are lucky to go 1 for 1 KDR, most go negative.

If they're going negative, they're probably using a logi suit. If they're going negative, then the vehicle isn't their problem.

They lose millions of isk per match, trying to take down Tanks and ADS, usually failing due to a smoke trail leading infantry scouts, assaults, forge and sniper fire to them.

Roughly 5 suits is 1mil ISK. Two of my missile tanks is over 1mil ISK. We're about even, though if I die 5 times, I'm closer to losing 3mil ISK.

Yet you say they are OP...

AV is OP when a nuclear baseball is doing ~1800 each to bare armor.

Most skilled tank drivers go isk positive and have high KDR's....

If you're using duna2002 as a baseline, then you're figuring wrong. He's not good, he just pads his KDR. The better tank pilots don't have a high KDR, because they're usually more concerned with other vehicles, especially if they're using a railgun. Hell, countless times while blowing up red/unhacked installations, there's AV after me and I hadn't even gone after infantry.

That kind of insane hatred for vehicles is a mental illness.

Translation

"Vehicles won't be balanced till they are OP!"

Guys don't worry, Rattati is soon to drop three more heavy weapons and will return balance to the force.

Last I checked, a PRO Breach Forge with 4 damage mods could one shot a full HP base HP Shield tank, if the shot is in the weak spot, but not an Armour tank. Proficiency doesn't factor in as that's vs Armour, not Shields.

computer says no

Direct hit damage against armor, with Prof 5 and four complex heavy damage mods: 3053

With +25% bonus from hitting the weakspot: 3793

Base HP of an armor tank: 4000, leaving it at 207hp

Huh, looks like it can't "kill an armor tank in one hit", even in the extremely unlikely scenario that the BFG is sitting in the right position and has the time to charge and aim at a small point on the back of the tank. Pretty close though, right?

Oh, and that was even assuming that the 1200 base shield HP is magically missing from the soma/madrugar, cause if the forge gun had to chew through that the tank would still have around 1300 armor.

I sure hope I don't need to walk you through the math to figure out if a 4150 ehp sica with about two thirds of its HP as shields could survive a single shot from a breach forge gun

I wonder how many of you specced into tanks expecting to farm infantry every match.

I went into tanks because I wanted to beat the hell out of other vehicles.

It obvious by how often you hide on a hill or in the redline.

We need ammo, and sometimes need a safe place so our modules can cool down.

if there is av on the field: you hide in the redline

Not all of us are redline tankers. You just don't know enough people.

if there is another tank on the field: you hide in the redline

If there's a red tank on the field, it gets destroyed.

if one of your vehicles gets destroyed; you hide in the redline.

If one of mine gets destroyed, I call in another and go at it again.

All this while even the newberries are charging in trying to contribute.

No, they do nothing. I have a mCRU ship, and they rarely get out and do anything. I flew into the redline to see when some guy that had been sitting in my ship would jump out, and you wanna know when he finally jumped out? 3 seconds before blowing up. No, blue dots do not help, nor do they attempt to help.

Yet as soon as you get the clear, you are out there trying to farm infantry and easy points.

You obviously are only basing this on seeing duna2002 farming infantry, or when one team has a single Soma out, and your team has literally nobody using AV, or the turrets.

Im still confused by 1.7 to be honest. It made tanks - to infantry - seem hideously OP. But, excluding the Triple-Rep Maddy,

It was OP to them because it required reloading and teamwork to destroy one. We sacrificed damage and putting anything in the high slots to get that rep.

Tank vs Tank was glorious. The fights were amazing, I remember a 5 vs 5 fight on the Bridge map better than any other, it was brutal. So I will agree with Spkr that Tanks were normally occupied with killing each other rather than infantry.

This is good. Yes

However, from my own experience of 1.7 if you were on a team with far superior vehicle users, you'd more often than not wipe the floor with the enemy vehicles and be left with nothing to do other than kill infantry,

That's where experience makes all the difference. Two or three great pilots could wipe the floor with 5, 6 or 7 enemy tanks, and having out as many as they can at all times.

as there is no defined roles for tanks, or vehicles in general.

That's because they were designed around Skirmish 1.0, where the attacking team was always pushing forward, capturing and destroy the null cannons, to stop the damage to their own MCC.

They're just "there". Thats where I feel the "Tanks were OP" part comes from,

No, it comes from "my rifle can't kill it, nerf it.

there was so bloody many of them, that the good vehicle users would have no one else to kill other than infantry en mass, as there was so much firepower from 3-5 Tanks.

Whose fault would it be that the enemy team stopped bringing out tanks? Wouldn't be my fault, they're just not good enough.

That being said, until vehicles in general have a defined role, balancing them is next to impossible, especially if they're not supposed to slay infantry but thats all they can do.

Since it seems like infantry is still having at least 50% of an opinion on how tanks work, they'll probably make tanks the same as they are against infantry, which is practically useless.

However I still feel that the Forge Gun by itself is okay. Its annoying, can kill me, but I can evade it and get a chance to kill the user.

Forge at least requires aim. I have no respect for the people that have level 5 in swarms, and Minmando, and still complain about vehicles. They can't get the kill, merely chase it away when it's on fire, and that's not good enough for them.

Its a lot closer to 'balance' than Swarms.

Swarms will never be balanced, because they gear them towards the lowest common denominator.

Nothing is more annoying than every single game, in any gamemode, Pubs, FW or PC, theres always a Commando with Swarms. Not an exagerration, once a vehicle user starts killing infantry because it has nothing else to do, one **** with a Commando and Swarms goes and sits on a tower that only a Dropship can reach and rains hell on the vehicle.

They get the height advantage and still complain.

Although more of a Dropship issue, its still incredibly annoying in Tanks. And for a Dropship - despite the fact that evading swarms is very hard even for a skilled pilot - there is next to no wave of opportunity to kill the user, due to the damage it deals and the knockback effect.

No, there isn't any chance now, because the third volley is guaranteed to hit, despite using the afterburner.

A low skilled swarmer using a crappy one, or the Anti-Armor fit isnt that hard to deal with, but CBR7 and above is a real pain. But the Dropship vs Swarms argument is more suited to another thread.

They complain that the Darkside swarms aren't enough to solo a vehicle.

Tanks dont get it much easier. Kinda hard to hit something you normally cant see and by the time you've worked out where you are you're probably almost dead. I also dont feel that the argument of "My 200K suit is completely vulnerable while assaulting you' is valid, because, as Spkr said, our Tanks/Dropships cost Double that if not more, plus theyre trying to do something that they werent designed for, as they have no other use currently.

Nearly half a million ISK, and an SP investment totaling around 12mil - 15mil. What is it to make swarms by themselves good (everybody else always includes the SP of infantry core skills and the suit, which artificially inflates the SP needed), about less than 3mil. I'm not including light weapon op, reload, ammo or fitting proficiency. Just the base SP required to get the swarm up to snuff.

Infantry can go 20-0 and no one bats an eye, Vehicles go 20-0 and it hits the fan. Well, what else are we supposed to do if we have no role and can only slay? Be a WP farm? Sit there and look pretty? Its not a fair argument when Infantry that pull those scores are designed to slay whereas vehicles have nothing else to do.

Hell, vehicles can go 10-0 and they'll scream so loud it'll wake the dead.

Once vehicles have a defined role, the old vehicles are back, and the old modules are back, we will have a foundation to build balance upon. Until then, its an impossible task. All I know is at that point Swarms will need to be changed far more than Forge Guns.

Preferably nerfed, because they're already idiot proof. They shouldn't be the ideal AV simply because of that.

Not even remotely true. Hell they don't even compete well.

Either i tease them with my dropship till they come out or (in maps where the redline can stretch far out so AV can't reach) jihad them.

You know the domination map where the redline has been moved about 50-75m away from the point? If it's safe out and a tank just comes in then backs up and starts sniping people crossing from the supply depot over to the objective, and a slight sign of av makes that tank back up even more, i will jihad the tank. This is my last resort to allowing my team to tread carefully before all the blueberries switch to AV and makes us lose the point. (we all know this happens often when one sees a large target. "Why go small when you can go big?")

As you see why i'd take a dropship to pull the tanker out slowly so i can engage with my dropship... If there is no need for... "absolute intervention" per se.

Psychological warfare is the name of the game. greed kills people, wp greed kills people and costs games. I'm just stopping it when it starts.

Says tanks arnt OP but uses the example of soma being OP as excuse.

Again, a glass railgun. Meaning it takes out other vehicles, not infantry. Methinks you should buy the reading comprehension skill book.

also so i guess the range reduction and reduced clip/mag from 4-3 as well as missile reduction 6-4 and a damage reduction is a buff

What? You're complaining about swarms? They used to do 7000 damage before having to reload. A pilot is now no longer able to tell if someone is firing MLT swarms, or full-tilt all-skills-level-5 PRO swarms. I generally wait for the first hit to see how much armor gets taken off, then assess if I need to go away or if I have another 5 seconds. I forgot who presided over the lock on range nerf, but the guy said it was needed, and that swarms were never meant for map denial, only area denial. On the smaller maps it's still more than enough to deny vehicles.

i have yet to see any one QQ about tanks being OP just tankers complaining that AV are so if you could please link some recent threads where AVers are QQing

If you don't see people complaining that vehicles are OP, then you must be reading different forums. No, I'm not going to link anything. There's a ton of people here that have an extensive posting history complaining about vehicles.

OH and proto AV= proto turret ,not proto tank hull ( i would like to see proto tank hulls come back though)

No, you don't want to see the Chakkram and Kubera come back, because we'd fit them out with PRO turrets and all PRO modules, then you'll all complain that one AV person can't take them out, so they'll be nerfed into the ground or removed from the game AGAIN. A PRO turret doesn't make a STD tank into a PRO tank, just the same a PRO weapon doesn't make a STD suit into a PRO suit.

One PRO breach forge into the rear end of a tank = 1 dead tank. If you want more than that, go to another game.

tanks are not op, then complains that tanks gets 3 shotted by tank.........

Where was I complaining?

i never asked to reduce the missile count for swarms so yeah that was tankers

That was entirely on CCP, not us. Did you miss the part where I said that now we can't tell which tier of swarm someone is firing at us? Of course you missed it.

really because i havent seen a topic tanks are OP or wtf Tanks. please once again link. posts and replies dont count, your the one saying that Aver are making the threads not me

Looks like those threads going back over a year have been scrubbed. Yes I checked.

oh and i do want to see the other hulls come back it was fun spider tanking and supporting tankers

You don't know what that means, because you show a shocking lack of knowledge when it comes to tanking, saying AV is UP and tanks are OP. You don't know.

yes yes breach does alot of damage but it has to get through shields first which has a resistance and if your tank has no shields then please refer to my sig

Look some posts back. 1 shot with a PRO breach forge gun in the rear end = 1 dead tank. You make it sound like shield has 30% resistance to forge guns.

LOL please for some one who left after they 1.7 because they changed tanks maybe you hsould do what you did and get off the game or do what i did HARDEN THE FRACK UP.

No, you didn't HTFU, you spec'd out of vehicles. You wimped out. You left the field. And as I said, you show an astounding lack of knowing what it means to tank when I see your posts. If you supposedly were a pilot a while ago, you would know just how difficult it was and still is. But no, all I see is "tanks are OP, tanks are easy mode, it's hard for AV to kill tanks," etc etc.

and a proto tank dosent make you a good tanker.

[i]No, experience does which is what I keep saying. Don't you read anything properly?

That was entirely on CCP, not us. Did you miss the part where I said that now we can't tell which tier of swarm someone is firing at us? Of course you missed it.

yes i did miss that part but like i said it was tankers that called for it if i remember correctly

As I said, it was CCP, not pilots. It's detrimental to use because we don't know if we can hang around for another 5 seconds, or GTFO immediately because there's another 4000 damage coming our way. What pilot in their right mind would want that?

really because i havent seen a topic tanks are OP or wtf Tanks. please once again link. posts and replies dont count, your the one saying that Aver are making the threads not me

Looks like those threads going back over a year have been scrubbed. Yes I checked.

thats fine but ill admit i found one but it was like 5-6 pages back

oh and i do want to see the other hulls come back it was fun spider tanking and supporting tankers

You don't know what that means, because you show a shocking lack of knowledge when it comes to tanking, saying AV is UP and tanks are OP. You don't know.

i never said AV was UP and yes i know all about spider tanking and the different hulls being able to add modules that would let you repair shields and armor but the way it locked on was awkward and took to long

yes yes breach does alot of damage but it has to get through shields first which has a resistance and if your tank has no shields then please refer to my sig

Look some posts back. 1 shot with a PRO breach forge gun in the rear end = 1 dead tank. You make it sound like shield has 30% resistance to forge guns.
just because you said it 1 shot dosent mean that it actually did. i use the proto breach and have to bunny hop when charging to get a good shot when a tank is hiding behind things and even getting the weak spot
it would leave alot of tanks at 1/2 armor

So that means you're not hitting the rear end. It's 167% on a little spot. Proficiency 5, 4 damage mods and that = dead tank. People forget the extra bonus against armor that CCP threw in on the house.

LOL please for some one who left after they 1.7 because they changed tanks maybe you hsould do what you did and get off the game or do what i did HARDEN THE FRACK UP.

No, you didn't HTFU, you spec'd out of vehicles. You wimped out. You left the field. And as I said, you show an astounding lack of knowing what it means to tank when I see your posts. If you supposedly were a pilot a while ago, you would know just how difficult it was and still is. But no, all I see is "tanks are OP, tanks are easy mode, it's hard for AV to kill tanks," etc etc.

LOL no i didnt respec into tanks just as didnt respec into alot of other things i wanted to play different roles and besides i have admited that im not the best tanker, just because you assume that i lack knowledge dosent help your argument. just like you show a lack of how AV works and yes i do fly its more of a recent thing when i get shot down it was because ot my own stupidity i admit that i dont blame the AVers, or tankers, or installations that took me down and its funny you can ask any one that ive played with im usally the one running head first into the emeny or flanking them but i dont leave the field (unless game freezes or my squad leaves)

I've been on the side of AV and it's a piece of cake. If I chase off a tank, then I was effective. If I destroyed a tank, then the pilot was exceedingly stupid. Problem with infantry is that they want the vehicle dead right there, which isn't balance and isn't fair to us. If railguns were fair, the splash radius would be 2m, and would vaporize them.

and a proto tank dosent make you a good tanker.

[i]No, experience does which is what I keep saying. Don't you read anything properly?

and they do not ignore obstacles and terrain, that is simply a lie.