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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1399
   |
Posted - 2015.01.04 09:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, and there will be a lot of people who think I'm an idiot for saying it (because "Don't take my crutch, bro!"), but I really think that it would finally help to achieve balance between the suits.
The old argument that shotguns are only effective on scouts has been proven false, again with the "new"ish trend of speed tanking an assault suit and throwing a shotgun on it because you can reach scout like speed with higher EHP than said speed tanked scout. With the cloak delay/slowed weapon swap, you don't get insta-ganked by cloaked shot gunners as much any more either.
Heavies can use all weapons, they are the largest suit in the game, Mediums can't use heavy weapons, they can however use light and side arm, Light frames should have 2 (two) side arm slots for their weapons instead of a light weapon and a side arm because they already receive the benefits from having a higher base speed, lower profile, higher precision, smaller hit box, and the ability to fit a cloak, or tank themselves to near medium frame EHP values.
Side arms have high alpha damage weapons still, Knives (Best used on the Min scout, with the worst over all Ewar capabilities). Bolt pistol (The highest damage and range per shot sidearm we have). The Breach/Scrambler pistol is a beast (419% damage for head shots!). The Ion pistol has a great clip size, good damage and dispersion once you level up sharp shooter, and has a charge shot that yes while it over heats in 1 shot, can drop most medium frames in that one shot. Flaylock is great for clearing objectives/equipment, and is basically a hand held small missile turret. Mag sec, yes it has a slight charge up time, but it has decent range, clip size, and damage (Can be run as a main weapon as well).
The only side arm that needs some love is the SMG (Why fit a PRO assault SMG when the STD assault CR does more damage, at a longer range, for a lower fitting cost, and less ISK?), and the breach, while it does do decent damage and has a large clip size, really only has an optimal of ~28m
It would be nice if every race had at least 2 side arm weapons to chose from (Gallente and Amarr only having one currently)
I can already hear it coming from all the scrubs who need this OP current setup to do well screaming "But then I'll get slaughtered by heavies and medium suits!" I need my scout with my SCR/ACR/BrAR/SG/Whatever to kill everyone else."
Let me be very clear on something. You are a scout, not a light assault, not a light heavy. A scout. Your role on the battlefield should be to orbit the squad you are running with (Even if you run solo mostly), follow the pack and only break away when you see a clear opportunity for a quick/easy kill/hack.
It gives every suit a clear and defined role on the battlefield, scouts are still the hard counter to a heavy camping a point. (You have a lower profile, can cloak, have better scans and speed, and also fit REs), and it stops the whole issue of a single brick tanked scout being able to rush head on against a medium or heavy framed suit without at least thinking of an alternative way to kill said target, or get past them for a flank.
Assaults and Logi suits still fill their role being the primary combat suits, heavies still get to be the waddling death machines that hold points from the masses or ride around in their murder taxies ganking groups and lone wolves, and scouts get a clear and defined role to fill being the infiltrating hackers, link layers/killers, assassins that they should be. Without everyone trying to run one type of suit to fill all rolls.
I'm not just some noob who is pissed off at scouts, I have all 4 (Min and Gal PRO, ADV Cal, and soon to be ADV Amarr. I'm working on getting PRO with them as well), 2 PRO Assaults (Min, and Amarr. Will be working on Cal and Gal once I finish skilling up the scouts), 2 PRO Sentinel (Min, and Amarr), Min Commando PRO, and Min logi PRO. As well as CR, SCR, MD, SG, LR, Swarm, HMG, NK, Mag sec, Bolt pistol, Flaylock. All maxed out aside from fitting optimization on a few of them. All my core skills aside from Active scanners, hand to hand, and cardiac regulation are maxed out as well.
I'm sitting on ~92 million SP, so yes, I've tested these fits and had this thought for a while, I'm not looking to give myself an advantage in any way shape or form.
I'm after some actual balance in this broken ass game.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1399
|
Posted - 2015.01.04 16:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buwaro Draemon wrote:Scouts are not scouts anymore.... just pseudo assassins.
If we want them to be Scouts again we have to take away their offensive capabilities.
.... Or introduce a new set of weapons called Medium Weapons. Only useable on Medium and Heavy frames. Light Frames are fucked
And that's what having two side arms instead of a light weapon and a side arm would do. It wouldn't leave them defenseless, but puts them out of the super slayer role.
Good scouts will always be good scouts, ****** assaults can seem good by tanking out a scout to near assault levels.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1399
|
Posted - 2015.01.04 20:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
You've impressed me by asking actual questions, instead of just flaming away like we have become accustomed to on these forums. I will do my best to answer each. Please be patient as I have to use my phone on these forums as my laptop is currently broken.
I see that you've edited your intelligent post with a stupid one instead. I will still address the questions you've posted previously.
1. Sounds boring by FPS standards. Does this boring job pay logi-grade WP for squad support reconnaissance?
It's only as boring as you make it. It seems pretty boring to me to simply have all these "different" suits that are all essentially fit the exact same way, trying to do the exact same roles.
You can still slay with a side arm only scout (with a total of 357 EHP) Lots of people including myself do it quite regularly, it just requires you to actually think about your approach to the situation instead of just run in with tank and light weapons sans thought.
You can still tank your scout and have near medium frame EHP at the cost of Ewar, without the high DPS/alpha and range of the light weapons. The sidearms aren't bad weapons. It's about making all suits have to sacrifice something to be effective, instead of having one true jack of all trades.
2. Are you aware passive scans are pretty crap now? Recent scan changes would have to be peeled back (perhaps even reverted) for this non-combat unit to be effective in his role. Cloak Blind, Directional Arrow Removal, Falloff, Logi Range Buff
Yes I know that Ewar is mucked right now. The reason they did that is because "We (CCP) feel that passive scans were too strong". They had a bunch of scouts, with range, precision, damps, speed, and the same weapon as an assault. With a smaller hit box, and comparable EHP. Decimating everything because not only could they see everything and everyone, they had the firepower and tank to do it. It was OP. CCP took the wrong path to fix this issue.
Return Ewar to what it was, change scouts to two sidearms and it will fix the total slayer scout spam that we had before CCPs muck up with Ewar.
3. Are you prepared to produce four separate-but-equal flavors of recon? All four will need to be equally appealing to keep intra-role usage rates in equilibrium. Rattati seems to be keen on parity.
Returning the Ewar back to what it was, while giving scouts two sidearms will give the scouts back their separate-but-equal flavors of recon. Without making them OP again.
4. If Scout usage rates slumped to Uprising 1.0 - 1.7 levels, would you pat yourself on the back for "bringing balance to the game"?
Yes and no. Yes, as far as giving the community a new way at looking at things as to specialization and roles. No, because it wouldn't just be one mans crusade against something.
What it would achieve is to make the scout suit a specialization like the Logi and commando. Assaults are in a good place right now (mostly) they have the EHP and slot layout to fit their suits in any way to mimic the specialized roles, without overshadowing them, or fit a suit that is fully intended for frontline combat.
5. What is inherently wrong with Dust having a glass-cannon assassin class?
Nothing, I would love to see a true glass cannon class. As it sits right now however, having the smallest hit box, the lowest profile, the fastest base speed, and the ability to either be a glass cannon with all these attributes, OR a bricked out suit, still with most of these attributes, throws the whole sub class out of balance.
As stated in the title. It is just a thought. It's not a demand, or an angry tirade from a butt hurt player.
I use my gal scout with a shotgun to great effect and have a blast with it.
Just a different way of looking at balancing instead of this constant switch every time CCP over buffs/nerfs something.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1400
|
Posted - 2015.01.04 22:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
That would be a correct assumption, it did however serve to broach the actual conversation at hand, while listing the abilities of the side arms, both good and bad.
As we all know, Ewar is a joke in its current state.
The old Ewar was deemed too strong by CCP. As far as myself and my colleagues could gather from CCPs reasonings, it was because there was no reason to run anything aside from a scout because you could fill two full roles at once by running a squad of 6 scouts of mixed race due to their bonuses and ability to largely keep said bonuses intact while tanking EHP and damage output.
That brings us to where we are now. I do agree that the scout suit isn't as large of a threat as it used to be, but it's still not as game changing of a specialization as it should be.
With the current iteration of Ewar being as bad as it is:
The Amarr scout being the scan precision "King" of scouts, being beaten by every other scout by running up to 2 complex damps, tie in scan vs damp 18db v 18db, victory goes to the dampener, except at extreme close ranges.
The Caldari scout once King of range, due to the slot layout and precision fall off, restricts the suit from reaching its full potential without severely gimping itself with regards to survivability, and a heavy can get within HMG range and stay under the scouts scans by throwing a damp or two on in place of the armor plate.
The Gal scout has largely remained unaffected due to damps being a personal thing instead of team, and the swap delay from cloak to weapon has curbed the insta pop shotgun/cloak thing.
The Min scout has remained mostly the same due to it not having inherent suit bonuses to Ewar. It's still the knife and hack suit of choice.
The fact that cloaks reduce your scan range while active is a great addition, even if it might be slightly too large of a range reduction, in my personal opinion.
I'm just the voice of the group, but we don't see it as a direct Nerf to the scout suit because you aren't really limiting its max damage output by that much, since we all have grenade slots and the ability to carry remotes if desired as well as a cloak, but it would allow CCP to return the Ewar to its former capabilities (or at least buff them slightly) without making the scout suit the "Go to" fit that it once was.
We would frequently create new characters and ask players for advice on what to skill in to, to be effective on the battle field. (To get a feel for how the active player base was feeling, since the forums are generally populated by stupid rants, and trolls. As forums generally are) The resounding response was most always "Scout, with SCR, BrAR, SG, or ACR", and when we asked why, the response was "because it's the best of both worlds".
Medium frames should be the most common seen and used on the field, they are (again) now, but the issue that we're seeing is that the majority of the scouts on the field are opting out of their specialized role traits, and instead just brick tanking, sticking one of the high damage output weapons on, and trying to mimic the assault classes with a smaller hit box and higher strafe speeds. Which shouldn't be the case.
We're playing a FPS here and I know we all want the ability to run our fits however we want, but we feel that some restrictions for the betterment of the community and game as a whole would, in the end, be a good idea.
Maybe restricting the scout to two sidearms isn't the answer, but it's still one idea that would allow CCP to give the lightest frames in the game a distinct place on the field by buffing Ewar again, instead of the assault mimics that we have now.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1400
|
Posted - 2015.01.04 23:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:
PS: CPM Zatara himself has stressed on numerous occasions that Assault Lite wasn't a real problem, despite several Scout's insistence to the contrary. If the non-issue is now at issue, I'm sure he'll let us know that he was wrong.
With all due respect, CPM Zatara (My CEO) is a joke. He doesn't give two ***** about this game anymore and shouldn't be a CPM, or our CEO, and is just having his fun on destiny, waiting for this game to "get good, or die". I know, I play destiny with him still.
If we as, Corp had the ability to remove him as CEO, it would have been done a long time ago. We had a vote.
His opinions on dust are about as informed about this game as mine as an electrician are on knob and tube wiring vs cinventional, modern wiring methods. I don't deal with it, ever. So all I know is what I'm told, from whoever tells me.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1404
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 01:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:I still fail to see the necessity of the restriction. Even if there were a very good reason to do it, there are only so many variations of sidearm scout available; this would severely restrict build diversity and skew usage rates. I run pistol + knives on my MinScout, but I also snipe in my CalScout and run swarms + remotes on my GalScout.
Build variety keeps things interesting. Why restrict ourselves to all but a handful of loadout options without having a damn good reason to do so?
PS: I'd strongly recommend against your skilling further into AM Scout. Its scans are pretty crap post-falloff, and the suit performs poorly compared to CA/GA/MN. I've removed my AM Scout loadouts and intend to respec out of it should it remain this way for long.
I will agree with that, and I never stated that it was a necessity to restrict scouts. I do enjoy a gal scout pistol + MD combo from time to time, though the commandos do it better. The only thing that restricting the weapons would achieve would be to allow CCP to put the Ewar on scouts back to, or close to what it used to be, which was for its intent and purpose, in a good place. Without making them the "go to" suit again.
Players need a reason to use the bonuses that are given by the suit that they chose, otherwise there is no point in having a bonus on said suit.
Look at the pre-fit CCP named AUR suits, who actually uses them, how many are sold? They are pretty close to useless. Especially the ones that require you to have skills on to the suit.
The only suits that I can think of that is worth keeping and using are the officer ones.
That being said. What suggestions would you have that would make it more worthwhile for players to build scout suits to actually make use of their bonuses over brick tanking with high damage on everything?
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1404
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 05:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
I honestly have less of a problem with the light assault idea as the OP may have eluded to it.
The whole point was to get people talking about how to get the scouts Ewar back to a more usable state.
I still love running my Minja, my Gal/SG combo, Cal/ACR. Only thing on all my scouts that we've noticed is that the Ewar on the suits is very underwhelming over all.
Yes, I know that limiting scouts to sidearms would only mean that we would see more sidearm kills, and that it wouldn't really downplay the lethality of good scouts. I generally run my sidearm only min scout with mag sec and knives and do very well, but if it would get us our Ewar back, we would support it.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1404
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 05:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:The Infected One wrote:I honestly have less of a problem with the light assault idea as the OP may have eluded to it.
The whole point was to get people talking about how to get the scouts Ewar back to a more usable state.
I still love running my Minja, my Gal/SG combo, Cal/ACR. Only thing on all my scouts that we've noticed is that the Ewar on the suits is very underwhelming over all.
Yes, I know that limiting scouts to sidearms would only mean that we would see more sidearm kills, and that it wouldn't really downplay the lethality of good scouts. I generally run my sidearm only min scout with mag sec and knives and do very well, but if it would get us our Ewar back, we would support it.
The thing with EWAR is that it impacts everyone. The EWAR you're asking back is based off of old mechanics before CCP Rattati's concentric circles were implemented for all suits. EWAR is one of those special cases that has a lot of factors affecting it.
Okay, so maybe the Ewar we had before was a little bit much, but we need something better than what we currently have. The concentric circles thing isn't working. All it's done is allowed medium frames to mimic scouts in speed and stealth, with higher EHP, and totally mucked over the Amarr and tell Caldari scouts.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1405
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 08:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:
Can those be buffed/tweaked per suit?
I like how if I want to be a recon scout I can use a active scanner that is shared with the team. It is not 360 and all scouts can beat it should they want to. I do think the new eWar was needed. Now if only we could get rid of shared passive.
Per suit would be awesome.
I would say get rid if team share, maybe make it squad share, and give points to the passive scan scout?
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
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