DUST Search - To whole those calling Tanks Glass Cannons

True Adamance wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Timtron Victory wrote:

You are dead wrong. I think tankers just want to go back to the patches when a single tank can take out an entire team. Yes CCP should bring back vehicle modules to create variety etc but tanks are not weak.

I played in a FW in which four tanks were working together and chasing objectives by themselves with a dropship or two parading the skies. It was a brutal match

But in all honesty, I dont really care if tanks get a 30,000HP buff as long as CCP reduces the quota of vehicle also.

Tanks are not glass cannons, nor should they be IMO, however there are very clear imbalances in terms of the HAV right now.

The Shield HAV IS OVERPOWERED.

People need to wise the **** up about them especially other tankers. This is obvious to us. Not only do they have more eHP they have better regeneration capacity, fitting capacity, mobility, can use fitting modules without compromising primary tank, and have better hardeners and resistance profiles vs most commonly used and available AV types.

Armour tanks by comparison are underpowered. They suffer crippling lack of fitting capacity, poor mobility profiles, poor damage resistance profiles, poor total eHP values, and worst of all suffer from 15% less efficient hardener units for no reason at all.

Arguably Tanks back in the Uprising Patch were more balanced than I've ever seen them. Very susceptible to AV without careful module use, slower and more tank like with respectable and even eHP values, less passive regen (DIE PASSIVE REGEN DIE!), but consequently were integral parts of the battlefield.

CEO Pyrex for all his trolliness said once "every smart gang has a tanker" and at that time is was true. A tank unmolested could have free reign over the battlefield, but when contained by the AV of the time they were a pricey liability for the pilots themselves and the ISK efficiency of the gang.

I'd love for tanks to go back to being more tank like, and I feel with other changes we can give tanks the proper role they were always meant to have while keeping their ability to uncompromisingly impact and alter infantry dynamics to a manageable and minimal level.

The issue as I see it is that, and flame me later Atiim and Breaking, that "Infantry Players don't want to have a bar of Tanks" for the most part they would be happy to play in a small self contained little world and thus are unsurprisingly adamant about not give tanks a specific role.

When Tanks support infantry the other team whines they are OP.
When friendly infantry is supported by tanks they whine that tanks claim the most kills.
When tanks try to shoot down other vehicles AV whines their role is being over shadowed.
When other vehicle are shot down by tanks they complain that tanks have too much power.

It doesn't help that most tankers in this game are mistaking what they are doing for actual operation of a tank....which arguably it is not by any stretch of the imagination... and argue that based on an already awkward vehicle paradigm that X should be possible of Y made invalid.

TL;DR Under the tag line "True is a scrubby tanker, a self righteous prick, and knows nothing about what he is talking about."

Vehicles are not glass cannons but they are currently broken and there's no hope in sight.

Gunnlogis are not overpowered. There is simply a lack of reliable shield AV (lolPC) with which to take them on. we could theoretically switch swarms and forges to anti-shield and then there would be claims of Maddies being OP.

Even if there were more Anti Shield weapons you could not argue that the 40% Shield Hardener vs 25% armour hardener was balanced. You could not argue that the lacking fitting capacity of Maddies was balanced or the fact that Gunnlogi could still have 1500-2000 more eHP than them.

Even if there were a more reliable manner of anti shield AV it would not change the fundamental imbalances between shield HAV and armour HAV.

Not when Shield HAV can continue to armour tank.


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Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2434	Posted - 2015.01.04 05:13:00 - [1] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Timtron Victory wrote: You are dead wrong. I think tankers just want to go back to the patches when a single tank can take out an entire team. Yes CCP should bring back vehicle modules to create variety etc but tanks are not weak. I played in a FW in which four tanks were working together and chasing objectives by themselves with a dropship or two parading the skies. It was a brutal match But in all honesty, I dont really care if tanks get a 30,000HP buff as long as CCP reduces the quota of vehicle also. Tanks are not glass cannons, nor should they be IMO, however there are very clear imbalances in terms of the HAV right now. The Shield HAV IS OVERPOWERED. People need to wise the **** up about them especially other tankers. This is obvious to us. Not only do they have more eHP they have better regeneration capacity, fitting capacity, mobility, can use fitting modules without compromising primary tank, and have better hardeners and resistance profiles vs most commonly used and available AV types. Armour tanks by comparison are underpowered. They suffer crippling lack of fitting capacity, poor mobility profiles, poor damage resistance profiles, poor total eHP values, and worst of all suffer from 15% less efficient hardener units for no reason at all. Arguably Tanks back in the Uprising Patch were more balanced than I've ever seen them. Very susceptible to AV without careful module use, slower and more tank like with respectable and even eHP values, less passive regen (DIE PASSIVE REGEN DIE!), but consequently were integral parts of the battlefield. CEO Pyrex for all his trolliness said once "every smart gang has a tanker" and at that time is was true. A tank unmolested could have free reign over the battlefield, but when contained by the AV of the time they were a pricey liability for the pilots themselves and the ISK efficiency of the gang. I'd love for tanks to go back to being more tank like, and I feel with other changes we can give tanks the proper role they were always meant to have while keeping their ability to uncompromisingly impact and alter infantry dynamics to a manageable and minimal level. The issue as I see it is that, and flame me later Atiim and Breaking, that "Infantry Players don't want to have a bar of Tanks" for the most part they would be happy to play in a small self contained little world and thus are unsurprisingly adamant about not give tanks a specific role. When Tanks support infantry the other team whines they are OP. When friendly infantry is supported by tanks they whine that tanks claim the most kills. When tanks try to shoot down other vehicles AV whines their role is being over shadowed. When other vehicle are shot down by tanks they complain that tanks have too much power. It doesn't help that most tankers in this game are mistaking what they are doing for actual operation of a tank....which arguably it is not by any stretch of the imagination... and argue that based on an already awkward vehicle paradigm that X should be possible of Y made invalid. TL;DR Under the tag line "True is a scrubby tanker, a self righteous prick, and knows nothing about what he is talking about." Vehicles are not glass cannons but they are currently broken and there's no hope in sight. Gunnlogis are not overpowered. There is simply a lack of reliable shield AV (lolPC) with which to take them on. we could theoretically switch swarms and forges to anti-shield and then there would be claims of Maddies being OP. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2438	Posted - 2015.01.04 06:02:00 - [2] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: True Adamance wrote: Timtron Victory wrote: You are dead wrong. I think tankers just want to go back to the patches when a single tank can take out an entire team. Yes CCP should bring back vehicle modules to create variety etc but tanks are not weak. I played in a FW in which four tanks were working together and chasing objectives by themselves with a dropship or two parading the skies. It was a brutal match But in all honesty, I dont really care if tanks get a 30,000HP buff as long as CCP reduces the quota of vehicle also. Tanks are not glass cannons, nor should they be IMO, however there are very clear imbalances in terms of the HAV right now. The Shield HAV IS OVERPOWERED. People need to wise the **** up about them especially other tankers. This is obvious to us. Not only do they have more eHP they have better regeneration capacity, fitting capacity, mobility, can use fitting modules without compromising primary tank, and have better hardeners and resistance profiles vs most commonly used and available AV types. Armour tanks by comparison are underpowered. They suffer crippling lack of fitting capacity, poor mobility profiles, poor damage resistance profiles, poor total eHP values, and worst of all suffer from 15% less efficient hardener units for no reason at all. Arguably Tanks back in the Uprising Patch were more balanced than I've ever seen them. Very susceptible to AV without careful module use, slower and more tank like with respectable and even eHP values, less passive regen (DIE PASSIVE REGEN DIE!), but consequently were integral parts of the battlefield. CEO Pyrex for all his trolliness said once "every smart gang has a tanker" and at that time is was true. A tank unmolested could have free reign over the battlefield, but when contained by the AV of the time they were a pricey liability for the pilots themselves and the ISK efficiency of the gang. I'd love for tanks to go back to being more tank like, and I feel with other changes we can give tanks the proper role they were always meant to have while keeping their ability to uncompromisingly impact and alter infantry dynamics to a manageable and minimal level. The issue as I see it is that, and flame me later Atiim and Breaking, that "Infantry Players don't want to have a bar of Tanks" for the most part they would be happy to play in a small self contained little world and thus are unsurprisingly adamant about not give tanks a specific role. When Tanks support infantry the other team whines they are OP. When friendly infantry is supported by tanks they whine that tanks claim the most kills. When tanks try to shoot down other vehicles AV whines their role is being over shadowed. When other vehicle are shot down by tanks they complain that tanks have too much power. It doesn't help that most tankers in this game are mistaking what they are doing for actual operation of a tank....which arguably it is not by any stretch of the imagination... and argue that based on an already awkward vehicle paradigm that X should be possible of Y made invalid. TL;DR Under the tag line "True is a scrubby tanker, a self righteous prick, and knows nothing about what he is talking about." Vehicles are not glass cannons but they are currently broken and there's no hope in sight. Gunnlogis are not overpowered. There is simply a lack of reliable shield AV (lolPC) with which to take them on. we could theoretically switch swarms and forges to anti-shield and then there would be claims of Maddies being OP. Even if there were more Anti Shield weapons you could not argue that the 40% Shield Hardener vs 25% armour hardener was balanced. You could not argue that the lacking fitting capacity of Maddies was balanced or the fact that Gunnlogi could still have 1500-2000 more eHP than them. Even if there were a more reliable manner of anti shield AV it would not change the fundamental imbalances between shield HAV and armour HAV. Not when Shield HAV can continue to armour tank. However, shield extenders do not give the amount of health a plate does. The Maddys lacking CPU does definitely cripple it, but this is the Maddy being UP, not the Gunnlogi being OP. And part of the reason Gunnlogis armor tank in the first place is the lack of modules to put there. We have armor mods, fitting mods, and ammo expansions. Fitting mods are useless if you can fit everything, ammo expansions aren't as useless but not near as desirable as armor mods. Don't blame the Gunnlogi for being prevalent everywhere, look at the reasons why its used. Maddie's were everywhere til they needed armor reps, was the Gunnlogi OP then? Increase Maddy CPU, you'll see more Maddies around. Give more anti-shield AV options, you'll see less Gunnlogis. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2441	Posted - 2015.01.04 08:00:00 - [3] - Quote True, the Armor repper has several advantages over the base recharge of the Gunnlogi. A. Co.plex repper does the same amount of repair as the base Gunnlogi recharge. One module and your equal to a Gunnlogi, with more base health as well. B. You cannot stop thearmor rep. At all. It keeps worming no matter how much incoming damage there is. Gunnlogis suffer from a delay. C. You have a skill that pushes the armor rep even higher. Gunnlogis get a depleted regen ability. Wooo. The main issue with the Maddy is that it has awful CPU and must sacrifice a low slot that could have been used for tanking in order to fit anything useful. A simple CPU buff will do wonders for it. Gunnlogis dual tank because as I said, there is nothing else, I say again NOTHING ELSE worth putting there. Fitting mods are useless unless your fit requires them, they offer no other benefit. And ammo expansions do nothing that a supply depot, or even simply calling in a new one, won't do already. So they put armor mods there. As for 10,000 ehp Gunnlogis, they can only have that for a limited time. Its not like they're running with 10,000 HP at all times. And the high ehp of Gunnlogis is because THERE IS CURRENTLY NO ANTI-SHIELD AV. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2441	Posted - 2015.01.04 09:02:00 - [4] - Quote I absolutely agree with you. I also think the Maddy needs a generous (by 100 or more) CPU buff, and we need to create/makeshift some shield AV to counter Gunnlogis. But I don't want us to continue the nerf cycle we've been on since 1.7 dropped util vehicles are back to being unviable on top of lack of module variations making all fits equally cookie-cutter and boring. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.