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Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1436
   |
Posted - 2015.01.01 21:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
The amarr scout is 4% slower than the other scouts, at max skills it has 37.5 more HP than other scouts. At base it has 30 more HP.
It looses 10 shields and gains about 40 armor on top of the gallante scout base. It gains a total of 30 hp. A 4% strafe speed decrease, sprint decrease, and movement decrease is what you get from an enhanced Armor plate.
Penalty wise, the Amarr scout should have a total of 250 armor base and 60 shields. To be fair.
Gal scout has 70 shields and 130 Armor and is 4% faster than the Amarr scout
Am scout has 60 shields and 170 Armor and is 4% slower than the Gallante scout
A Gallante scout with 70 shields and 240 armor runs at a speed of 7.32 m/s (one enhanced armor plate).
A Amarr scout with 60 shields and 170 armor runs at a speed of 7.35 m/s.
The gallante scout has 80 more total HP over the Amarr scout while running at almost the same speed.
According to the speed penalty, the Amarr scout should have at least 70 shields and 240 armor OR 60 shields and 250 armor.
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All Gucci
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
22
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Posted - 2015.01.01 21:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Finally someone else sees the movement/sprint speed vs armor ratios are messed up for the copy and paste amarr scout/assualt.
Emperor Gucci
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
2399
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Posted - 2015.01.01 21:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would rather the speed penalty be removed.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6734
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Posted - 2015.01.01 22:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
It has a crap ton of stamina though which means it almost never has to walk; it can sprint everywhere. Removing the speed penalty would be insane.
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1431
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Posted - 2015.01.02 00:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
The AM Scout was actually a good choice prior to Falloff. I'd recommend we change its perk/role rather than buff it's base HP. It needs something Scoutly and meaningful that it can be good at again. |
Atiim
Titans of Phoenix
14780
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 01:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Amarr Scout: 60/170 (235 eHP)
Gallente Scout: 70/130 (200 eHP)
So, it gains an extra 17.5% eHP at the cost of only 4% speed? You're right, that is imbalanced. I say we reduce the Amarr Scout's Armor to 135, that way it only gains an extra 4% eHP for its 4% speed loss.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4259
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Posted - 2015.01.02 02:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:It has a crap ton of stamina though which means it almost never has to walk; it can sprint everywhere. Removing the speed penalty would be insane.
People love to ignore that fact.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
1936
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Posted - 2015.01.02 02:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:It has a crap ton of stamina though which means it almost never has to walk; it can sprint everywhere.
Removing the speed penalty would be insane.
The Minassault had its HP penalty removed because it wasn't performing its role well enough. It now has a disproportionate HP and Speed compared to other Assaults.
I don't see why we shouldn't do something similar with the Amscout. It isn't performing its role well enough, so why shouldn't we give it similar treatment?
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Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1439
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Posted - 2015.01.02 03:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:It has a crap ton of stamina though which means it almost never has to walk; it can sprint everywhere. Removing the speed penalty would be insane.
That crap is bullsh*t and over rated. I have an AM scout and I pick a Minmatar any day for a Marathon and a race.
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Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1439
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 03:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Amarr Scout: 60/170 (235 eHP)
Gallente Scout: 70/130 (200 eHP)
So, it gains an extra 17.5% eHP at the cost of only 4% speed? You're right, that is imbalanced. I say we reduce the Amarr Scout's Armor to 135, that way it only gains an extra 4% eHP for its 4% speed loss.
That is a stupid way of balancing. That would mean you lose close to 100% of your speed and run at a standstill if you put on one complex plate. Please comeback with a valid argument.
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Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1439
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 03:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:It has a crap ton of stamina though which means it almost never has to walk; it can sprint everywhere.
Removing the speed penalty would be insane. The Minassault had its HP penalty removed because it wasn't performing its role well enough. It now has a disproportionate HP and Speed compared to other Assaults. I don't see why we shouldn't do something similar with the Amscout. It isn't performing its role well enough, so why shouldn't we give it similar treatment?
It's not really a good scout. To be honest, it has a lot of drawbacks. A ton of them to be exact. It is mean to be like a light assault but it has less HP and speed (I think) than a Minmatar Assault. Not to mention, it less armor than min Assault as well.
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Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1439
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 03:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:It has a crap ton of stamina though which means it almost never has to walk; it can sprint everywhere. Removing the speed penalty would be insane. People love to ignore that fact.
My Minmatar Commando can jump 7 times with no breaks, It doesn't deserve any further buffs due to the fact that it can jump 7 times. #logic.
The Stamina ect bonuses are equivalent to one basic cardiac regulator.
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Racro 01 Arifistan
501st Knights of Leanbox
482
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Posted - 2015.01.02 03:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
so scouts are supposed to focus on EHP?????????............................
huh.
amarr scout has potential to be the fastest suit in the game. (including sprint speed/ stamina combined with regen.)
but oh no....no one wants to fit kincats and cardiac regs do they.....lets not forget the amarr scout's bonus either. 5% increase to stamina, stamina regen and scan precision..... best hunter in the game much.
Elite Gallenten Soldier
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Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1439
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 03:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Racro 01 Arifistan wrote:so scouts are supposed to focus on EHP?????????............................
huh.
amarr scout has potential to be the fastest suit in the game. (including sprint speed/ stamina combined with regen.)
but oh no....no one wants to fit kincats and cardiac regs do they.....lets not forget the amarr scout's bonus either. 5% increase to stamina, stamina regen and scan precision..... best hunter in the game much.
1. It can only be faster than the Caldari scout.
2. The stamina bonus is equivalent to one basic Cardiac Regulator
3. 4% less speed for only 36% of the Hp we should be getting
4. Precision bonus is almost useless because
-You have no range when cloaked
-The range even with max skills is awful
-The falloff made it almost pointless
5.Best hunter in game second to Cal scout, Gal scout, min Scout, Min Assault
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Greasepalms
Ahrendee Mercenaries
705
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Posted - 2015.01.02 04:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fun fact: Min assault can sprint and move faster than an Amarr Scout. (base stats)
let that sink in for a minute |
Atiim
Titans of Phoenix
14782
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 06:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:The Minassault had its HP penalty removed because it wasn't performing its role well enough. It now has a disproportionate HP and Speed compared to other Assaults.
False, the Minmatar Assault (and some other Min suits) received a slight eHP buff because their Speed : HP Loss ratio was both disproportionate, and inconsistent compared to the other races.
It not performing it's role properly had nothing to do with that.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1430
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Posted - 2015.01.02 06:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:The amarr scout is 4% slower than the other scouts, at max skills it has 37.5 more HP than other scouts. At base it has 30 more HP.
It looses 10 shields and gains about 40 armor on top of the gallante scout base. It gains a total of 30 hp. A 4% strafe speed decrease, sprint decrease, and movement decrease is what you get from an enhanced Armor plate.
Penalty wise, the Amarr scout should have a total of 250 armor base and 60 shields. To be fair.
Gal scout has 70 shields and 130 Armor and is 4% faster than the Amarr scout
Am scout has 60 shields and 170 Armor and is 4% slower than the Gallante scout
A Gallante scout with 70 shields and 240 armor runs at a speed of 7.32 m/s (one enhanced armor plate).
A Amarr scout with 60 shields and 170 armor runs at a speed of 7.35 m/s.
The gallante scout has 80 more total HP over the Amarr scout while running at almost the same speed.
According to the speed penalty, the Amarr scout should have at least 70 shields and 240 armor OR 60 shields and 250 armor.
>Minmatar logistics has total 240 eHP.
>Amarr has 300...
So you want a scout to have more in 1 tank than the medium frame minmatar logistics has total?
And more total eHP than the medium frame Amarr logistics?
While still being faster than them?
Yeah...until logistics gets buffed to at least basic medium frame level (60 extra eHP and more speed) imma say no.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1430
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 06:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:The Minassault had its HP penalty removed because it wasn't performing its role well enough. It now has a disproportionate HP and Speed compared to other Assaults.
False, the Minmatar Assault (and some other Min suits) received a slight eHP buff because their Speed : HP Loss ratio was both disproportionate, and inconsistent compared to the other races. It not performing it's role properly had nothing to do with that.
Then tell me.
If it was because the ratio was 'off' why did logistics get passed over?
240 eHP (nearly scout level) and slower than the 400 eHP assault...
That is terribly broken.
I mean,unless that ratio is just like a sticky note.
It sticks to somethings but not others.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Atiim
Titans of Phoenix
14783
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 07:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Atiim wrote:Amarr Scout: 60/170 (235 eHP)
Gallente Scout: 70/130 (200 eHP)
So, it gains an extra 17.5% eHP at the cost of only 4% speed? You're right, that is imbalanced. I say we reduce the Amarr Scout's Armor to 135, that way it only gains an extra 4% eHP for its 4% speed loss. That is a stupid way of balancing. That would mean you lose close to 100% of your speed and run at a standstill if you put on one complex plate. Please comeback with a valid argument.
The logic is perfectly valid, you claimed that there was a problem with Amarr Scout's HP because it's speed loss was not proportional to it's HP gain. To solve that problem, the Amarr Scout would need an HP nerf.
Your analogy would be correct, but Complex Plates aren't Base HP and as such are balanced differently.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1445
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 07:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:The amarr scout is 4% slower than the other scouts, at max skills it has 37.5 more HP than other scouts. At base it has 30 more HP.
It looses 10 shields and gains about 40 armor on top of the gallante scout base. It gains a total of 30 hp. A 4% strafe speed decrease, sprint decrease, and movement decrease is what you get from an enhanced Armor plate.
Penalty wise, the Amarr scout should have a total of 250 armor base and 60 shields. To be fair.
Gal scout has 70 shields and 130 Armor and is 4% faster than the Amarr scout
Am scout has 60 shields and 170 Armor and is 4% slower than the Gallante scout
A Gallante scout with 70 shields and 240 armor runs at a speed of 7.32 m/s (one enhanced armor plate).
A Amarr scout with 60 shields and 170 armor runs at a speed of 7.35 m/s.
The gallante scout has 80 more total HP over the Amarr scout while running at almost the same speed.
According to the speed penalty, the Amarr scout should have at least 70 shields and 240 armor OR 60 shields and 250 armor. >Minmatar logistics has total 240 eHP. >Amarr has 300... So you want a scout to have more in 1 tank than the medium frame minmatar logistics has total? And more total eHP than the medium frame Amarr logistics? While still being faster than them? Yeah...until logistics gets buffed to at least basic medium frame level (60 extra eHP and more speed) imma say no.
Do logistics suits have more slots than Scouts? If I recall you do have 2 more slots (H/L) to increase your tanks. You also have 2 more slots than a scout at proto.
Anyway, this isn't about balancing between roles, it's balancing between one role (Scout role).
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Atiim
Titans of Phoenix
14784
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Posted - 2015.01.02 07:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Meee One wrote:
If it was because the ratio was 'off' why did logistics get passed over?
Because compared to the Speed/eHP of other Logistics, the MinLogi's Speed <--> eHP ratio was proportionate.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1446
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Posted - 2015.01.02 07:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:Atiim wrote:Amarr Scout: 60/170 (235 eHP)
Gallente Scout: 70/130 (200 eHP)
So, it gains an extra 17.5% eHP at the cost of only 4% speed? You're right, that is imbalanced. I say we reduce the Amarr Scout's Armor to 135, that way it only gains an extra 4% eHP for its 4% speed loss. That is a stupid way of balancing. That would mean you lose close to 100% of your speed and run at a standstill if you put on one complex plate. Please comeback with a valid argument. The logic is perfectly valid, you claimed that there was a problem with Amarr Scout's HP because it's speed loss was not proportional to it's HP gain. To solve that problem, the Amarr Scout would need an HP nerf. Your analogy would be correct, but Complex Plates aren't Base HP and as such are balanced differently.
Speed cannot be directly proportional to HP. I don't know what you are going on about. Also, if it was proportional to base HP the way you intend it , that would be a great reason to quit the game. You can't go off base statistics, you have to use Module Statistics.
I'm talking about how an Enhanced Armor plate gives 110 armor for 4% penalty. So where is that other 70 armor go? I still got the speed penalty.
The way HP values should be balanced through are current modules not base statistics the way you are trying to propose. There is no base for HP values for a suit.
Anyway, your logic is no where near valid.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6128
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 08:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Balance number ratios are not absolutes.
They haven't been made a thing. It's just that some players like to crunch numbers.
The amarr scout build isn't a cloak assassin build. It's a forward ranging squad support unit intended to get eyes on the enemy, act as a bait/skirmisher and flanker. It can be made faster than the other suits and can operate independently with or without a cloak.
Just my take based on the stats. It's heavy recon and fast attack. Trying to make it as bricky as a medium suit isn't going to create good things.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Sequal's Back
Les Desanusseurs
52
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Posted - 2015.01.02 09:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Scouts having a eHP buff?? No.
Scouts are LIGHT suit, LIGHT. Put that in your head, then think about it.
They can already reach too high levels of HP. All of them. Find something else to increase, but not their HP.
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1831
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Posted - 2015.01.02 11:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:It has a crap ton of stamina though which means it almost never has to walk; it can sprint everywhere. Removing the speed penalty would be insane.
And yet every other scout still gets places faster, because if they have to stop for stamina they're stopped for less than 2 seconds. I'm also not sure about you, but I know that I certainly cant sprint while actively fighting enemies and shooting at them.
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1438
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 13:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Balance number ratios are not absolutes.
They haven't been made a thing. It's just that some players like to crunch numbers.
The amarr scout build isn't a cloak assassin build. It's a forward ranging squad support unit intended to get eyes on the enemy, act as a bait/skirmisher and flanker. It can be made faster than the other suits and can operate independently with or without a cloak.
Just my take based on the stats. It's heavy recon and fast attack. Trying to make it as bricky as a medium suit isn't going to create good things.
I agree. The AM Scout was introduced without a meaningful role. It later found a role following HF Charlie (counter-infiltration, high-precision/low-range recon). Today, it is again without meaningful role as the value of its passive scans has been greatly devalued.
Whether or not the suit made for a decent Assault Lite, I do not believe the role of the AM Scout was ever to brick tank. |
Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1438
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 13:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:The Minassault had its HP penalty removed because it wasn't performing its role well enough. It now has a disproportionate HP and Speed compared to other Assaults. I don't see why we shouldn't do something similar with the Amscout. It isn't performing its role well enough, so why shouldn't we give it similar treatment?
I do not believe that "Assault Lite" is the intended role of the AM Scout. If you want to help it fill its role, give it a boost to Range Extenders. If we can't because 360 wallhack scans are bad, then scrap the precision perk and give it a boost to biotics. |
Cavani1EE7
Murphys-Law
773
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 16:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Amarr Scout: 60/170 (235 eHP)
Gallente Scout: 70/130 (200 eHP)
So, it gains an extra 17.5% eHP at the cost of only 4% speed? You're right, that is imbalanced. I say we reduce the Amarr Scout's Armor to 135, that way it only gains an extra 4% eHP for its 4% speed loss.
lololololol
Let's not forget that the Amarr also gets stamina along with more HP, at the cost of 4% speed... oh well who am I kidding, none of these goats will ever understand anything about balance.
10100111001
Shield tanking is hard mode /period.
10100111001
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
1950
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Posted - 2015.01.02 16:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:Atiim wrote:Amarr Scout: 60/170 (235 eHP)
Gallente Scout: 70/130 (200 eHP)
So, it gains an extra 17.5% eHP at the cost of only 4% speed? You're right, that is imbalanced. I say we reduce the Amarr Scout's Armor to 135, that way it only gains an extra 4% eHP for its 4% speed loss. lololololol Let's not forget that the Amarr also gets stamina along with more HP, at the cost of 4% speed... oh well who am I kidding, none of these goats will ever understand anything about balance.
Well only an idiot would believe that 1% speed is equal to 1% HP...
Hell. You know what? It is... sure.
Now why don't you take 50% of my Min assaults HP and give me a 50% speed boost. Cause that would be "balanced", right?
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6134
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 23:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Balance number ratios are not absolutes.
They haven't been made a thing. It's just that some players like to crunch numbers.
The amarr scout build isn't a cloak assassin build. It's a forward ranging squad support unit intended to get eyes on the enemy, act as a bait/skirmisher and flanker. It can be made faster than the other suits and can operate independently with or without a cloak.
Just my take based on the stats. It's heavy recon and fast attack. Trying to make it as bricky as a medium suit isn't going to create good things. I agree. The AM Scout was introduced without a meaningful role. It later found a role following HF Charlie (counter-infiltration, high-precision/low-range recon). Today, it is again without meaningful role as the value of its passive scans was greatly devalued with the introduction of falloff. I do not believe the role of the AM Scout was ever to brick tank.
I believe that you are conflating meaning I didn't intend.
Bluntly the problems with the amarr scout and counter-scout EWAR lies in the range mods. the nerfing of those mods rather than flattening them out to give a predictable bonus pretty much signed the death knell of the amarr scout active scans. Let's not make bones about it. the ability to drop two precision mods and two or three range extenders is powerful. Combine that with a racial preference for weapons that hit like a truck and you have a scout that can lead a squad to targets like a bloodhound, then hit hard enough from far enough away to provide meaningful support to said squad.
All of the discussions pertaining to scouts universally revolve around the cloak. cloak this, cloak that, cloak cloak cloak cloak cloak. It's like people have decided that the only viable way to play is shotgun/knife/RE assassin.
I can see the amarr scout being INCREDIBLE for ferreting out and killing snipers, for example, or operating in a AV-hunter style, since, you know, AV players can't fight back effectively and the oft (and wrongly) lauded minmando is stupidly vulnerable to assault scramblers.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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