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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
163
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Posted - 2014.12.24 13:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
Suicide ganking says you're wrong.
Suicide ganking actually costs ISK. Also, I'm not too familiar with the exact finances of ISK efficiency in ganking since it's not an activity I partake in. Typically speaking what ratio of cost does it take to gank your average T1 Battleship with a T2 fit? I know people love to cite "BUT BUT BUT WHAT ABOUT GANKING HULKS?!" well sure if the HAV was a mining vehicle I'd totally buy that argument, but it's not, its a heavy combat vehicle, much like a battleship. So how much ISK do you have to spend to gank your average battleship? I can't seem to get an answer out of anyone.
Hey Pokey,
The answer depends entirely on what's being ganked and how many of what is doing the ganking. Gankers don't generally use T2 fits, they use the cheapest crap on the market, but lots of it, i.e. a bunch of T1 cruisers, lets say 3 or 4M each x 6 or 7 ships, all land on the 150M Battleship at their optimal, web/scram, blap. Cost about 28M, destroy about 150M, maybe loot 10M, so ratio of about 1:5, but that changes radically if the BS is a pricey mission runner, which can cost over a bil. Then you might need 13 gankers, but your ratio jumps to 1:20. Its hard to get an answer because the numbers can vary so wildly.
Suicide ganking tends not to be profitable; people don't do it for profit, they do it for tears, just like some JLAVing.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
163
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 14:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:I use a couple fluxes on a Maddy, then swarmed him got him almost dead in one mag, and then threw a RE at it. That took a solid 30 seconds, give or take. . You're doing it wrong somehow (not hitting the weak point and shooting at a Gunnlogi, especially when it's hardened would be doing it wrong).
Let me see if I understand your argument.
You want tanks/AV balanced so that instead of being easy, its somewhat more difficult to kill a tanker who lingers right next to AV infantry for 30 seconds?
If the game were balanced for that circumstance, it would be impossible to kill tankers who don't linger next to AV infantry.
That has very little to do with improving tank/AV balance. I'd support removing JLAVs from the game, as soon as AV infantry has a way to counter tanks just driving away from any troublesome infantry. The JLAVs are used, because there's no other way to catch or trap good tankers, the ones who use their superior mobility. Introduce webber AV nades, webber swarms, or webber plasma cannons, or make flux nades briefly slow tanks down to scout sprinting speeds, ANYTHING to (not take away completely, but) counter the ability of tankers to just drive away from AV infantry, and no one will need to resort to JLAVs to deal with more competent tankers.
I agree that BPOs, that are actually useful as AV, aren't a great way to achieve balance. But currently, they might be the only way to catch good tankers, i.e. the ones that don't just sit there letting AV infantry hose them. Maybe CCP has the numbers on forge/swarm fits lost vs. tanks lost, so that they understand that the balance is better with JLAVs than it would be without them. How can we know? Perhaps CCP will share those numbers with us.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
164
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Posted - 2014.12.24 14:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Why. Why the hell does these things still exists.
EDIT: Since some people thinks it's perfectly fine, a question to them: Would you say that DS crushing should be brung back to the game? It's quite literally on the same level of bullshit.
I just realize I commented without answering your original question. Yes, dropships should be able to crush things, so long as the damage is mutual and they show up on radar like a Christmas tree. (Merry Christmas, btw.)
With respect to tank balance, I favor slower, more ehp, more expensive tanks. I have trouble feeling bad for tankers whose losses are cheaper than mine when I go AV. Tanks should be end-game force multipliers for well coordinated teams; not newb-friendly hot rods with a get out of trouble nitro button. Any tanker who gets in nade range of two or three enemy AV infantry should die if he isn't accompanied by friendly anti-personnel infantry. Solo tankers speeding around the map are every bit as cheesy as JLAVs.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
165
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
Hey Pokey,
The answer depends entirely on what's being ganked and how many of what is doing the ganking. Gankers don't generally use T2 fits, they use the cheapest crap on the market, but lots of it, i.e. a bunch of T1 cruisers, lets say 3 or 4M each x 6 or 7 ships, all land on the 150M Battleship at their optimal, web/scram, blap. Cost about 28M, destroy about 150M, maybe loot 10M, so ratio of about 1:5, but that changes radically if the BS is a pricey mission runner, which can cost over a bil. Then you might need 13 gankers, but your ratio jumps to 1:20. Its hard to get an answer because the numbers can vary so wildly.
Suicide ganking tends not to be profitable; people don't do it for profit, they do it for tears, just like some JLAVing.
So in that case it would take 6-7 people in order to pull that off. About how much would it take for a single person to perform the same job?
Maybe. Sometimes gankers are single individuals using multiple fairly new, cheap accounts. Sometimes they're coordinating with allies. The problem with complaining about the cheapness of gank fits is that they do fit the risk/reward equation. The ganker is almost certain to lose his ships; unless the ganker uses overwhelming force (which is more expensive) the target might escape the gank. Just like the JLAV and targeted tank.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
165
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 18:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:The guy wasn't lingering, a chased it down, cornered it, and then laid into it. ...
Also, why is driving away a bad thing? Nobody ever said you had to kill it. Making a HAV run= killing it, as it's not there; it's a non threat.
...You can't just become overall superior, end all solution to vehicles, that's just wrong.
Also, I like how you assumed that I just want to sit there for 30 seconds without having to worry about infantry, when I've never said that.
There is a difference between pointing out a problem with the argument you're presenting (AV Infantry aren't "doing it right" if they fail to mimic your stellar performance when killing lousy tankers) and making assumptions.
I haven't argued that AV infantry should be superior; I've pointed out a problem with your argument for why JLAVs should be removed. The way to fix your argument, isn't by falsely accusing me of making irrelevant assumptions about the details of your AV efforts.
The way to fix your argument is to present a balanced solution that works against tankers that aren't lousy, i.e. tanks that don't get chased down and cornered by AV infantry.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
166
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:If your loses are more than a HAV, you're doing it wrong. My AV fits are 100k, and my HAV's are at least double that.
And tanks usually die as a consequence of multiple people using their AV fits, which have a combined cost that routinely exceeds the value of the tank. Comparing the cost of your single AV fit, which has almost no chance of killing a well driven tank without cooperation from the rest of your team, isn't a useful comparison. If 4 or 5 people have to use AV fits to get 3 or 4 of them in position to do damage quickly enough to kill a good tank driver, the cost of all their fits is properly compared against the cost of the tank.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
166
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 19:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Gyn Wallace wrote:
Maybe. Sometimes gankers are single individuals using multiple fairly new, cheap accounts. Sometimes they're coordinating with allies. The problem with complaining about the cheapness of gank fits is that they do fit the risk/reward equation. The ganker is almost certain to lose his ships; unless the ganker uses overwhelming force (which is more expensive) the target might escape the gank. Just like the JLAV and targeted tank.
I think you're misunderstanding my question. If someone wanted to gank a battleship using only a single ship, about how much would they need to spend in order to achieve this goal?
I don't know. I'm speculating: It would depend entirely on the security level of the space. In high sec, they can't spend enough. No single ship can suicide gank a well tanked battleship in 1.0 space. Concord would kill you too quickly to punch through a decent battleship's tank. I doubt a single well crafted gank ship could even get through a poorly tanked battleship's tank in 1.0 space. In 0.6 space, I would guess its possible, but have no idea. But if we're not talking about suicide ganking in the presence of Concord, if we're just talking about risk/reward out in low or null sec, a 10M ship can destroy a 1B battleship, if the 10M ship is perfectly crafted for taking on that 1B battleship. There are many instances in Eve of wildly cheaper fits taking on and beating (without having to suicide) wildly more expensive ships. Isk spent building ships in Eve is only circumstantially advantageous.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
167
|
Posted - 2014.12.25 14:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:If you're taking more than one AV to kill a HAV now, you're still doing it wrong.
The way to fix your argument is to present a balanced solution that works against tankers that aren't lousy, i.e. tanks that don't get chased down and cornered by a lone AV infantry.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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