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hold that
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
493
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Posted - 2014.12.19 20:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not going to write an essay here so just let me know why you agree or disagree.
IMO, and as being proto in all 4 logis, the problem(s) with Cal Logi, in order to do it right you must dedicate one of your lows to a cpu upgrade, leaving you only room for 2 complex shields and a repper or an enhanced
In addition with 5 highs, you will find an extremely hard time fitting anything over 3 complex shields and two precision enhancers. Not necessarily a bad thing, but your total ehp still peaks about 7 or 8.
All this is considering you are running your cal logi in order to reap the rewards from being level 5, so you should be running proto hives and a proto repper.
Cal logi is no doubt the slowest of all logis. Amarr might be slow, but the monster stanima makes up for it. Gal might be slow, but that's because all lows are filled with tank, you can stop that from happening from having the choice of using dampeners, reppers, etc, cal logi does not have that choice because one spot is dedicated to cpu upgrade.
Cal racial is extremely situational and only lasts for a few seconds, unlike all the other logis who reap the benefits all throughout the match. Once you drop a hive and people start spamming grenades because "oh lol" your hive pops in seconds. Also hives are popped by enemy numerous ways and through walls.
My suggestions:
If CCP does not want to give more cpu to Cal logi, give it an extra equipment slot. Seems contradictory but might as well force us to use a proto cpu upgrade then.
Buff the racial to strengthen the durability of hives, and the range they can affect the group. Would also do something to stop folk from being able to find your hive and pop it instantly by "oh lol grenade u".
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
2716
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Posted - 2014.12.19 20:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
A combination of a crappy bonus (lolhives), only three equipment slots, a lack of CPU/PG, and the overall weakness of shield tanking over armor tanking, and the result is a Cal Logi that's still being held accountable for it's past slayer-logi transgressions.
IMO, it's time to look at the Cal Logi. |
Cody Sietz
Random Gunz RISE of LEGION
4262
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
The Cal should also get a bonus to needles as well, though I disagree on hives not being useful.
But doesn't the Cal get 4 lows? And like over 100 pg? How is it PG starved?
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Jack 3enimble
Titans of Phoenix
643
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:The Cal should also get a bonus to needles as well, though I disagree on hives not being useful.
But doesn't the Cal get 4 lows?
yeah it does, but CCP robbed 60 CPU from it back in 1.3 or so. That 4th low is used for a CPU upgrade
Dealing justice with a swift punch in the balls, now in battles near you!
Lord of the Links
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11758
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Caldari and Gallente logis have the exact same speed and stamina, and a properly fitted Gal logi should be even slower. The fact that Amarr logis have more stamina in no way means it's faster than the Cal logi, stamina=/=speed. Cal logi is no doubt NOT the slowest.
Logis in general are messed up, and need serious rebalancing.
The actual problem with logis.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:The Trello board entry for this to vote on.A long while ago logis were on the list of things that needed a serious overhaul, Rattati had spreadsheets and plans of slot normalization, but ultimately nothing came of it. It really needs to be fixed though, because it's pretty ridiculous. I will explain what the problem is below. STANDARD AM logi: 4 module slots total, 2 equipment, and 1 sidearm. GA logi: 2 module slots total, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots total, 2 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 4 module slots total, 3 equipment, no sidearm. In case the problem is not obvious right there, I will compare the standard logis with the racial equivalents: The Minmatar and Amarr logis have a huge advantage over the others; they each start with 4 module slots. The Minmatar one has more equipment than the Amarr one, but the Amarr one has a sidearm.
The Caldari one only has 3 modules, but why? it doesn't gain anything in exchange for having less modules, it has only 2 equipment, and no sidearms. The Amarr logi by comparison has the same number of equipment, but more module slots, and gets a sidearm. Caldari logi is screwed at standard tier.
The Gallente one is also awful. Only 2 module slots? sure it has 3 equipment slots, but the Minmatar one also has 3 equipment slots, AND gets 4 module slots. The Gallente logi is screwed at standard tier.
ADVANCED AM logi: 6 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 5 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 6 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. Advanced logis comparison. At advanced tier, Amarr logi is clearly the best logi. 6 modules, 3 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
Minmatar is in 2nd place, the only difference between the Minmatar and the Amarr logi is the lack of sidearm.
Both Gallente and Caldari are downright inferior at advanced. Only 5 modules, same number of equipment as the inferior logis, and no sidearm.
PROTOTYPE AM logi: 7 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 9 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. Prototype logis comparison. The Gallente and Minmatar logis are the norm with 8 modules, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
At standard tier the Amarr logi started out as one of the 2 best logis, but at prototype level it's probably the worst. It has a sidearm, but at the cost of having less equipment AND having less modules. Basically the Amarr sacrifices twice for the sidearm when ideally it should only have to sacrifice once (either 1 less module OR 1 less equipment, but not both penalties). It should also be noted that the only difference between the advanced and prototype Amarr logis is just 1 module slot.
The Caldari logi started with only 3 module slots at standard, yet at prototype it has 9 module slots. While 9 module slots can be considered balanced because it is a the cost of having less equipment than the GA and MN logis, it does make progression very strange.
[SOLUTION]: my proposals are intentionally general and not specific because I don't feel like making a spreadsheets, and this thread is more about calling attention to the issue again. I also don't want to get in a lengthy debate about the specifics. Logis don't necessarily have to be placed in a very rigid progression system, but just give them the same number of total slots for a certain tier. By this I mean when you add up light weapon slot, sidearm slot, grenade slot, equipment slots, module slots (highs and lows) for logis of the same tier, you should get the same total number. This gives a lot of leeway, and allows some logis to have sidearms, or have more modules or equipment than others, but in an ultimately balanced way.
Be consistent. Don't have a certain racial logi start out completely superior in every way just to have them be inferior at prototype, or have a logi start out with poor module slot count just to have them have the most module slots at prototype.
Minmatar logi should be seen as a shining example for progression between tiers, and for being competent slot counts.
EDIT: If I were to suggest a specific solution. I would say to make logi module slots mirror their assault counterparts (proposed in the comments a lot).
The Amarr logi should remain an exception, having 1 less module per tier than it's assault counterpart, but keeping the sidearm in exchange.
All logis should have 3 equipment at standard, 3 at advanced, and 4 at prototype.
These changes would mean that the Caldari logi would have 8 module slots at prototype instead of 9, but in exchange would have more equipment slots at standard and prototype tier.
If anyone doesn't think there is a problem, go compare a standard Gallente logi to a Minmatar one.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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hold that
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
493
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:The Cal should also get a bonus to needles as well, though I disagree on hives not being useful.
But doesn't the Cal get 4 lows?
5 highs, 4 lows, 3 equipment @ proto level. Good luck having all 4 lows dedicated to HP though.
And i agree equipment is ultra useful, but it is so situational for the reasons i tried to explain above, while all the other logis benefit the group throughout the match. |
Ahkhomi Cypher
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
481
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
I dont think i've ever been in a situation where a 5 callogi was the deciding factor of a battle because of that hive bonus.
Amlogis cutting seconds off spawn time is huge because they keep guys on field for that hectic push/defense.
Gallogis scans are awesome because being scanned sucks.
Minlogis................... <3 GÖíGÖÑGÖíGÖÑ<3
Stay balanced. Be you. Always.
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hold that
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
493
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Amarr stanima is beast, and being able to sprint for longer periods of time, even if slow, is invaluable.
Also, gal doesn't need all that tank, because their best defense is scanning, and able to prep for the enemies and know where they are at all times.
Min with 4 equipment slots can equipt a proto scanner and benift sorta the same. Cal has none of these luxuries. |
Powerh8er
The Rainbow Effect
580
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Get good.
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jane stalin
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
56
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
A level 5 Amarr's drop uplink is MUCH better than any else's drop uplink
A level 5 Gallente scanner is MUCH better than any else's scanner
Make a level 5 Caldari's Hive MUCH better than anyone else's Hive, Less bandwidth use More hit points a flux grenade does 50% damage, As well as the current bonus
Edit or maybe change the blast radius of weapons blast radius is the same for every thing else but if you are targeting a Caldari hive there is a 10% penalty to the radius per level, |
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hold that
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
493
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
no u |
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State
1569
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
I like the Cal logi but that's because I'm Caldari but I understand anyone who would speak on there shortcoming's ... it does have a situational bonus so to speak but you could say that about Amarr and Gal as well .
It's nothing like the Min where your an instant benefit and you know your role , not to say each is not defined but scanners have cool down times and spawns are on timers and each , like nano's can be destroyed with a flux and this is not a argument against the rep tool because in NO way does it need ANY change .
I could chalk that up to the job at hand though and yes if you don't have fitting in check , you would need a CPU mod , the suit is nice besides the tier development and the imbalance of the fact that only the PRO is viable , the STD and ADV are lacking due to the slot configuration .
It's a good suit while using chargers / energizers , enhancers and regulators .
I think that CCP was still reeling from the slayer logi effect that took place , they just didn't know how to handle that suit without pissing someone off .
Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
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hold that
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
494
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
the uplink used by a level 5 amarr logi, unlike the hive, cannot be destroyed by bluedots, only after 30 of them have cycled out. With hives a bluedot just walks up to it and throws four grenades in vague direction of enemy then pop, later. the uplink also does not have to be at the location of the fight, which also increase it's longevity, which also increases the rewards and total squad wp for orbitals.
because this game is 80% defense against scouts and the rest knowing where the enemy is the scanner even with a cool down, and the ability to do it throughout the match, and the ability it allows your group to transverse the map, is 100% necessary and useful at all times, any gal logi not running one OR TWO scanners is straight up on some weak sht. |
Powerh8er
The Rainbow Effect
580
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Posted - 2014.12.19 21:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Come on, with nano hive bonus it is probably the best slayer logi in the game and why are you supplying the useless bluedots with hives in the first place? Hives should be preserved for the slayers in your squad or for yourself. Anyway use a combat rifle, shoot constantly at enemy, drop rep hives and become a logislayer.
"the one that shoots the most wins the gunfight" |
hold that
Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic
495
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Posted - 2014.12.19 22:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Slayer logis, i forgot about them |
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