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No Death Until Clone Termination

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Kain Spero Goonfeet 3980	Posted - 2014.12.19 18:41:00 - [1] - Quote The idea is simple: kills stay the same but deaths aren't counted until your clone is terminated since you haven't cost your team a clone. Forum post requested for this trello card: https://trello.com/c/K2yfrlnp/285-no-death-counted-until-clone-termination Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4050	Posted - 2014.12.19 18:44:00 - [2] - Quote I seem to recall a dev saying it's basically deeply hard coded that death is recorded at the point of incapacitation. Not saying its a bad idea, but I think it's a technical impossibility without extensive effort. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3980	Posted - 2014.12.19 18:59:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I seem to recall a dev saying it's basically deeply hard coded that death is recorded at the point of incapacitation. Not saying its a bad idea, but I think it's a technical impossibility without extensive effort. From what I understand the issue before was that it required a client side change, so for a while it was indeed technically impossible because no client side updates were occurring. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5873	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:03:00 - [4] - Quote If it gets people to actually call for revives? Sure. Otherwise I see no value to this. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4050	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:10:00 - [5] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I seem to recall a dev saying it's basically deeply hard coded that death is recorded at the point of incapacitation. Not saying its a bad idea, but I think it's a technical impossibility without extensive effort. From what I understand the issue before was that it required a client side change, so for a while it was indeed technically impossible because no client side updates were occurring. Well if I am mistaken and what you say is true, then by all means go for it. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Bojo The Mighty Condor Squad 5331	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:23:00 - [6] - Quote We've gone over this before: A death insinuates that you lost a fight, and thus is a record that you lost Not recording that kill/death would be like spilling water on yourself and saying you didn't because it evaporates later. Bojo For CPM
Her Chosen Grade No.2 151	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:25:00 - [7] - Quote Dead, is dead! You lost your life. A death still goes on your record. Whether you lose your assets is another feature. I still think you should get 1WP for terminating a clone. STRONG BOX ROLE CALL
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3980	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:34:00 - [8] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: Dead, is dead! You lost your life. A death still goes on your record. Whether you lose your assets is another feature. I still think you should get 1WP for terminating a clone. Except you are incapacitated not dead. The clone pool for your team doesn't change until the clone is terminated. I do agree that WP should be given for terminating a clone. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3980	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:35:00 - [9] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: We've gone over this before: A death insinuates that you lost a fight, and thus is a record that you lost Not recording that kill/death would be like spilling water on yourself and saying you didn't because it evaporates later. No change to your kills. This is only something that has an impact on death count. Basically every shooter in the universe follows these rules if there are revives in the game: Battlefield, Planetside 2, etc. The fact that you downed the clone is recorded as a kill, but if you don't bother to follow through and terminate then the player has not taken a death, lost their suit, or (most importantly) cost their team a ticket in the clone count. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game RUST415 1761	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:41:00 - [10] - Quote i agree that only clone terminations for the downed player should count. however i feel kdr needs to contain clones killed by the player also as its only these kills that count towards cloning the enemy. perhaps kdr should remain the same and instead give us a clone kdr (kills/deaths/revives) to compare your actual kdr with examples normal kdr 20/5 clone kills for this was 10/2/0 overall you were very effective either way normal kdr 0/3 clone kdr 0/3/20 obviously a logibro and also very effective normal kdr 5/10 clone kdr 1/9/0 pretty bad or is it however it is all interpretation of the stats. the current kdr does not accurately show the effect on clones and just showing your own clone deaths compared with all kills still does not accurately show how effective you where as for all you know for your 3 actual clone deaths you may not have actually killed any clones and thats not clone efficient to me all kills and clone deaths are not compatible stats. if we are going to do it it should be done properly in order to remain accurate All Hail Legion
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3981	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:50:00 - [11] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I seem to recall a dev saying it's basically deeply hard coded that death is recorded at the point of incapacitation. Not saying its a bad idea, but I think it's a technical impossibility without extensive effort. From what I understand the issue before was that it required a client side change, so for a while it was indeed technically impossible because no client side updates were occurring. Well if I am mistaken and what you say is true, then by all means go for it. I think one of the other issues was request to have a needle forgive a death. Once the death is triggered it's done, but when that death is triggered can be manipulated. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18068	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:00:00 - [12] - Quote rather remove kdr from game replace with isk efficiency (bpos would count their risk variants per death in this) CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 273	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:03:00 - [13] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The idea is simple: kills stay the same but deaths aren't counted until your clone is terminated since you haven't cost your team a clone. Forum post requested for this trello card: https://trello.com/c/K2yfrlnp/285-no-death-counted-until-clone-termination 1. OP was in CPM and could have actually tried to get this small but simple idea that was mentioned more than 2years ago implemented into DUST - I guess doing nothing was more important
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6717	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:12:00 - [14] - Quote I agree with Kain. I feel dirty now... Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3983	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:18:00 - [15] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Kain Spero wrote: The idea is simple: kills stay the same but deaths aren't counted until your clone is terminated since you haven't cost your team a clone. Forum post requested for this trello card: https://trello.com/c/K2yfrlnp/285-no-death-counted-until-clone-termination 1. OP was in CPM and could have actually tried to get this small but simple idea that was mentioned more than 2years ago implemented into DUST - I guess doing nothing was more important Actually this was presented by the CPM to devs on several occasions. I even posted about this while I was on CPM as well. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1445530#post1445530 Kain Spero wrote: I think the clone termination issue actually goes to a deeper problem. I would like to see it where you don't take a death until the clone is actually terminated. This would lead people to hold out hope for that revive and greatly improve the logi function. Part of this would include giving a player additional points (5 to 10) for terminating a clone. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2409	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:19:00 - [16] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The idea is simple: kills stay the same but deaths aren't counted until your clone is terminated since you haven't cost your team a clone. Forum post requested for this trello card: https://trello.com/c/K2yfrlnp/285-no-death-counted-until-clone-termination Never liked this because i want a stat that shows how often any given player loses fights. That's a good and useful stat, don't you think? We could add this second stat, i have no problem with that. Death would count for this second stat if your clone was terminated or the bleedout timer expired. PSN: RationalSpark
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 5079	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:32:00 - [17] - Quote I've been asking for this for a very long time. I don't think CCP agrees with it though, based on prior blue posts. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game RUST415 1762	Posted - 2014.12.19 21:21:00 - [18] - Quote one stat to rule them all this is what current kdr is. while it is in a way important its not accurate in anyway. there are 3 things that make a good player in dust you might say kdr however it doesn't account for logistics and other important tasks on the battlefield however it does show your efficiency with a weapon which is good but in a game like dust kdr is not everything. so what do we really need. like i said in my above post https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2528960#post2528960 we need not only kdr but clone kdr. how is your clone efficiency. no one knows because its not monitored yet clones are a fundamental to how dust works. how many you kill compared to how many you lost but not only that, how many did you save. these are all important when it comes down to a clone win. lastly we have isk efficiency. we are all mercs. mercs kill for money yet too many players are overlooking this issue and playing matches for huge losses which is counter productive to balancing how we make that isk. how isk efficient are you. when you put all 3 of these stats together then and only then will every player get a full understanding on how well they played. it will also allow them to compare with their enemies. perhaps they are doing something different to you. these are not all meaningless stats. these are the fundamentals of what dust is supposed to be about. we need them all not the best bits of one with the best bits of another. All Hail Legion
D3LTA Blitzkrieg II 0uter.Heaven 139	Posted - 2014.12.19 21:56:00 - [19] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I've been asking for this for a very long time. I don't think CCP agrees with it though, based on prior blue posts. If you control the area at the end of a fire fight, there should be a big incentive for people to call for pick ups. The needle animation is incredibly long and exposes the medic and the fallen blue. While the 90wp is nice, it does not give me (the fallen) a reason to call for a rez. Don't say saving isk is a incentive. You either rich beyond measure and have billions to proto stomp all day, or you noob in BPO suit. Maybe carry needle if your trying to save a buddys officer weapon? But even then you get more LOLs by letting them die Needles is just another thing in the game that doesn't really have a set place.
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3985	Posted - 2014.12.19 23:25:00 - [20] - Quote Yep, even if a suit doesn't have a cost there should be a selfish reason for a downed player to want to ask for a revive. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5500	Posted - 2014.12.20 01:06:00 - [21] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: If it gets people to actually call for revives? Sure. Otherwise I see no value to this. It appears you've answered your own question Only4-5KDRpubbiesCanRunADV24/7\|PCplyrsRunPRO&smashSTD/MLTplyrs24/7. ThisIsHowIt'sAlwaysBeen,ThereforeMustStayThisWay.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1610	Posted - 2014.12.20 01:11:00 - [22] - Quote Yes, for if you get downed you earn a D. Note that there will be no clone loss for the team, of course. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
gauntlet44 LbowDeep Heaven84 Devils General Tso's Alliance 184	Posted - 2014.12.20 01:13:00 - [23] - Quote if you get a kill, they get a death if you get a death, they get a kill regardless of revive also play as strangeland stranger, gauntlett5487, and balacs sixkin
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1610	Posted - 2014.12.20 01:15:00 - [24] - Quote Incapping counts as a kill for most statistical purposes. Being down is a logical opposite to that. BTW I too agree that finishing a bleeder should grant some minimal WP. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 312	Posted - 2014.12.20 01:25:00 - [25] - Quote I agree that the stats need to be changed off of kdr, and that a merc is not dead till terminated, but I would at least settle for no death message to termination be the priority. When the screen is cluttered, how are we to know if we should ask for a revive? Most won't ask for a revive due to this issue alone. Sage /thread
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3986	Posted - 2014.12.20 02:48:00 - [26] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: I agree that the stats need to be changed off of kdr, and that a merc is not dead till terminated, but I would at least settle for no death message to termination be the priority. When the screen is cluttered, how are we to know if we should ask for a revive? Most won't ask for a revive due to this issue alone. Instead of clone failure imminent it probably should read "call for help" at the top. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5882	Posted - 2014.12.20 08:43:00 - [27] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: If it gets people to actually call for revives? Sure. Otherwise I see no value to this. It appears you've answered your own question You are familiar with the term "rhetorical question?" Wikipedia is that way if the concept confuses you. ------> EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5504	Posted - 2014.12.20 10:00:00 - [28] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: If it gets people to actually call for revives? Sure. Otherwise I see no value to this. It appears you've answered your own question You are familiar with the term "rhetorical question?" Wikipedia is that way if the concept confuses you. ------> You familiar with sarcasm? Wikipedia is that way if the concept confuses you. ------> Only4-5KDRpubbiesCanRunADV24/7\|PCplyrsRunPRO&smashSTD/MLTplyrs24/7. ThisIsHowIt'sAlwaysBeen,ThereforeMustStayThisWay.
Flint Beastgood III Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 1075	Posted - 2014.12.20 11:40:00 - [29] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: Dead, is dead! You lost your life. A death still goes on your record. Whether you lose your assets is another feature. I still think you should get 1WP for terminating a clone. Yep. +1 Skills - https://www.facebook.com/notes/flint-beastgood-iii/list-of-trained-skills/416505058477164
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2412	Posted - 2014.12.20 14:56:00 - [30] - Quote Flint Beastgood III wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Dead, is dead! You lost your life. A death still goes on your record. Whether you lose your assets is another feature. I still think you should get 1WP for terminating a clone. Yep. +1 It has more tactical value than that, +5 WP would encourage peeps a bit more. PSN: RationalSpark
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3989	Posted - 2014.12.20 15:09:00 - [31] - Quote I think a lot of people are missing the point in that the goal is to encourage players to call for revives. For many players the death on their stats is the most expensive part of going down and so they get incapacitated and immediately switch to a spawn point. This costs the team a clone and brings the team as a whole one step closer to losing a match. What is the moment to moment gameplay benefit for a revive not saving a death? Adding WP for terminating a clone while at the same time not taking a death until termination would most assuredly increase teamplay as players would prefer to run with teammates in hopes that they have a needle and as more people call for revives (even in a BPO suit) more needles would be fielded. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5141	Posted - 2014.12.20 15:16:00 - [32] - Quote Change deaths to incapacitations. Problem=Solved. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Cavani1EE7 Murphys-Law 648	Posted - 2014.12.20 16:03:00 - [33] - Quote No. I like making sentinels go negative although they have logis sticked on their ass. Shield tanking is hard mode /period.
Kain Spero Goonfeet 3991	Posted - 2014.12.20 20:57:00 - [34] - Quote Cavani1EE7 wrote: No. I like making sentinels go negative although they have logis sticked on their ass. If you don't make sure the heavy is down and he continues to kill your teammates then what have you actually accomplished in the moment-to-moment gameplay? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

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