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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2847
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Posted - 2014.12.18 12:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
First off I just want to bring this up to gauge reaction.....I dont necessarily think it should be this way.
So if Scouts are not really meant to be stacking armour plates and as such are receiving greater movement penalties when fitting these....
Should we not then also conclude that Kinetic Catalyzers are not meant to be on heavy suits and as such, kincats fitted to heavy suits should receive a harsh penalty too?
What are your thoughts?
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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WARxion ForDUST
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
209
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Posted - 2014.12.18 12:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:First off I just want to bring this up to gauge reaction.....I dont necessarily think it should be this way.
So if Scouts are not really meant to be stacking armour plates and as such are receiving greater movement penalties when fitting these....
Should we not then also conclude that Kinetic Catalyzers are not meant to be on heavy suits and as such, kincats fitted to heavy suits should receive a harsh penalty too?
What are your thoughts?
The penalty for a Scout to fit plates is losing speed. The penalty for a Sentinel for stacking kincats is losing EHP. Balanced.
Yes, I'm that desperate...
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robin williams' ghost
Damaged Beyond Repair
Learning Alliance
276
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Posted - 2014.12.18 12:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
For example my min (speed) sentinel which uses proto kin cats, armor rep, dmg mod and a prec enhancer only has roughly 480 ish shields and 500 ish armor. Pretty squishy so it's a good trade off. Other sentinels wreck me if I'm not careful.
Robin Williams endorses this corp
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2848
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
WARxion ForDUST wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:First off I just want to bring this up to gauge reaction.....I dont necessarily think it should be this way.
So if Scouts are not really meant to be stacking armour plates and as such are receiving greater movement penalties when fitting these....
Should we not then also conclude that Kinetic Catalyzers are not meant to be on heavy suits and as such, kincats fitted to heavy suits should receive a harsh penalty too?
What are your thoughts? The penalty for a Scout to fit plates is losing speed. The penalty for a Sentinel for stacking kincats is losing EHP. Balanced.
Not quite. Scouts receive extra penalties that other classes of suit dont get for stacking armour plates. Where is the extra penalty for Kin Cat heavies?
By the way I run pure unadulterated speed scouts and have done since beta before anyone shouts "scrub tanked scout crying about the nerfs"
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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Atiim
Titans of Phoenix
14575
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread]
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2848
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Atiim wrote:This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread]
Why is a 7.5 m/s heavy not outside of its intended role yet a 500-600 hp scout is? Is a Sentinels intended role not point defence or Heavy AV?
Again my goal is not to defend tanked scouts, I just wish to understand the bias people have on the forums.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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CharacterNameWasTaken
335
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Atiim wrote:This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread] Why is a 7.5 m/s heavy not outside of its intended role yet a 500-600 hp scout is? Is a Sentinels intended role not point defence or Heavy AV? Again my goal is not to defend tanked scouts, I just wish to understand the bias people have on the forums.
*watches as silence occurs from atiim*
"Stop it the bouncing is making me uncomfortable" - Senji/Crow
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brett morris518
is well hung
48
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:WARxion ForDUST wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:First off I just want to bring this up to gauge reaction.....I dont necessarily think it should be this way.
So if Scouts are not really meant to be stacking armour plates and as such are receiving greater movement penalties when fitting these....
Should we not then also conclude that Kinetic Catalyzers are not meant to be on heavy suits and as such, kincats fitted to heavy suits should receive a harsh penalty too?
What are your thoughts? The penalty for a Scout to fit plates is losing speed. The penalty for a Sentinel for stacking kincats is losing EHP. Balanced. Not quite. Scouts receive extra penalties that other classes of suit dont get for stacking armour plates. Where is the extra penalty for Kin Cat heavies? By the way I run pure unadulterated speed scouts and have done since beta before anyone shouts "scrub tanked scout crying about the nerfs"
I think it's just funny as hell to run fast in a sentinal with an hmg. Doesn't do a lot of good but it runs at like 7m/sec lol |
CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2848
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
CharacterNameWasTaken wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Atiim wrote:This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread] Why is a 7.5 m/s heavy not outside of its intended role yet a 500-600 hp scout is? Is a Sentinels intended role not point defence or Heavy AV? Again my goal is not to defend tanked scouts, I just wish to understand the bias people have on the forums. *watches as silence occurs from atiim*
Silence doesn't exactly help.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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brett morris518
is well hung
48
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:CharacterNameWasTaken wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Atiim wrote:This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread] Why is a 7.5 m/s heavy not outside of its intended role yet a 500-600 hp scout is? Is a Sentinels intended role not point defence or Heavy AV? Again my goal is not to defend tanked scouts, I just wish to understand the bias people have on the forums. *watches as silence occurs from atiim* Silence doesn't exactly help.
Maybe it comes down to the hit box? A truck moving at 10mph is easier to hit with a rock than a scooter is.. So I think a heavy has a huge disadvantage when trying to "go fast" |
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Izlare Lenix
Pub Stars
1178
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
I have run both speed/tanked scouts and heavies.
The only thing I can say is a brick fit scout is (or was, haven't played much this patch) more versatile/effective than a speed fit sentinel.
Speed fit heavies are good for pub stomping but not as good as ehp in PC, especially since you are more likely to run into a wall of heavies in PC.
But I do like running ferros on my min sentinel in most situations. I don't have the extra sprint speed as kin cats but I have more HP and zero penalty to the min's OP strafe. I view it as best of both.
The only winner of WWIII will be the cockroaches.
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2848
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
brett morris518 wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:CharacterNameWasTaken wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Atiim wrote:This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread] Why is a 7.5 m/s heavy not outside of its intended role yet a 500-600 hp scout is? Is a Sentinels intended role not point defence or Heavy AV? Again my goal is not to defend tanked scouts, I just wish to understand the bias people have on the forums. *watches as silence occurs from atiim* Silence doesn't exactly help. Maybe it comes down to the hit box? A truck moving at 10mph is easier to hit with a rock than a scooter is.. So I think a heavy has a huge disadvantage when trying to "go fast"
The hit box may well be a factor I had not considered as unlikely as that sounds. Also after checking the stats, heavies are a little bit slower than I thought even with stacked kin cats. Attaining 7.5 m/s literally is about the max.
Thanks for being helpful man, obviously too much to ask on these forums sometimes.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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Jack Boost
Zarena Family
559
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
1. You can't shoot when you run (kincats are useles in strafe)
2. What is easier to target - big frame runing sent or 'slow' scout (even not running)
3. You can say about balance having more CPU/PG/slots ? Good. Actualy as scout you have more benefits for using plates then heavy , because stacking vs %EHP at heavy.
Not much time left...
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2848
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Izlare Lenix wrote:I have run both speed/tanked scouts and heavies.
The only thing I can say is a brick fit scout is (or was, haven't played much this patch) more versatile/effective than a speed fit sentinel.
Speed fit heavies are good for pub stomping but not as good as ehp in PC, especially since you are more likely to run into a wall of heavies in PC.
But I do like running ferros on my min sentinel in most situations. I don't have the extra sprint speed as kin cats but I have more HP and zero penalty to the min's OP strafe. I view it as best of both.
Yea man I agree that a scout is more versatile. However personally I always felt that the ewar / scanning mechanics were what gave the scouts their biggest advantage.
Its almost as if people forgot about how underused and under utilised scouts were for a long long time.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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Atiim
Titans of Phoenix
14575
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Atiim wrote:This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread] Why is a 7.5 m/s heavy not outside of its intended role yet a 500-600 hp scout is? Is a Sentinels intended role not point defence or Heavy AV? Again my goal is not to defend tanked scouts, I just wish to understand the bias people have on the forums.
There role is point defense, having increased speed allows them to defend said point by attacking the people pushing from multipule areas. Having increased speed also makes it easier to fight vehicles who turn around the corner.
They're still performing within their intended role while using KinCats.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2849
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Posted - 2014.12.18 13:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jack Boost wrote:1. You can't shoot when you run (kincats are useles in strafe)
2. What is easier to target - big frame runing sent or 'slow' scout (even not running)
3. You can say about balance having more CPU/PG/slots ? Good. Actualy as scout you have more benefits for using plates then heavy , because stacking vs %EHP at heavy.
And that big hit box is also the reason I have never liked Commandos. I wouldn't worry too much about HP certainly not repair as its quite easy to get a min logi to keep up with you or to have a friend with hives nearby.
Of course in PC its a different matter, everybody min maxes their ass off and generally uses the most powerful stuff. Experimentation is for pubs it would seem.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
|
CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2849
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 14:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Atiim wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Atiim wrote:This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread] Why is a 7.5 m/s heavy not outside of its intended role yet a 500-600 hp scout is? Is a Sentinels intended role not point defence or Heavy AV? Again my goal is not to defend tanked scouts, I just wish to understand the bias people have on the forums. There role is point defense, having increased speed allows them to defend said point by attacking the people pushing from multipule areas. Having increased speed also makes it easier to fight vehicles who turn around the corner. They're still performing within their intended role while using KinCats.
Thank you.
The thought of more speed has certainly never crossed my mind while forging. Huh, who am I kidding, I have the Caldari sentinel it only has one low slot anyway.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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brett morris518
is well hung
48
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Posted - 2014.12.18 14:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
No problem, man.. I still got a few rocks rolling around in the old noggin haha.. I'm just giving you all kinds of semi-useful info this week |
brett morris518
is well hung
48
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Posted - 2014.12.18 14:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
brett morris518 wrote:No problem, man.. I still got a few rocks rolling around in the old noggin haha.. I'm just giving you all kinds of semi-useful info this week
And as hou know, I don't take this game too seriously.. Speaking on experimentation, you should see some of the silly things I run around in.. You would say, "really, Brett? Wtf are you thinking" and I would respond "try it! Its so funny!":P |
neausea 1987
1.U.P
Capital Punishment.
211
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Posted - 2014.12.18 15:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
BOLT BRO i run speeed on everythin it's very tactical and it allows me to chase scubs that try to retreat and gather thier thoughts, i play a fast paced pressure style that requires me to move constantly as i feel my brain has to be in unisen with my suit. and as a minmitar everything speed is my ally people should be happy though im easier to kill in a sense. all my fits are kincats and stamina. if you ever engage with me check my ehp everytime you will see its lowbut approach at your own risk.
this is all I have a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ.... GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ .... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ ......... Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ i need more QQ tears MORE!!
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4043
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Posted - 2014.12.18 15:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Simply put, HP modules increase HP by a set amount, regardless of role or suit. That is to say the Scout can gain the exact same benefit that a Sentinel does from an armor plate or shield extenders.
However KinCats are percentage based, and since the Sentinel's base speed is lower than the Scout, it receives less of an absolute benefit than the Scout does. This means that the module naturally scales with the role and suit, whereas HP modules do not. I think increasing a Sentinel's speed is not unreasonable, nor is increasing a Scout's HP. What really matters is *how much* you can raise those traits, and at what cost.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Robocop Junior
research lab
1010
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Posted - 2014.12.18 15:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cardiacs > Kincats. I prefer running slow for a mile over running slightly less slower for a quarter of a mile. Look what happens to speed heavies in real life, RIP Chris Farley, John Candy, etc.
If strength were all, tiger would not fear scorpion.
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Poncho Polous
Titans of Phoenix
664
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Posted - 2014.12.18 15:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Atiim wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Atiim wrote:This can easily be answered with a simple question:
Q.Does using Kinetic Catalyzers allow them to perform outside of their intended role?
A. No
Well, guess the answer is no.
[/thread] Why is a 7.5 m/s heavy not outside of its intended role yet a 500-600 hp scout is? Is a Sentinels intended role not point defence or Heavy AV? Again my goal is not to defend tanked scouts, I just wish to understand the bias people have on the forums. There role is point defense, having increased speed allows them to defend said point by attacking the people pushing from multipule areas. Having increased speed also makes it easier to fight vehicles who turn around the corner. They're still performing within their intended role while using KinCats. Thank you. The thought of more speed has certainly never crossed my mind while forging. Huh, who am I kidding, I have the Caldari sentinel it only has one low slot anyway.
I've always liked using at least one KinKat on my forge suit, ESPECIALLY in PC's, when you've got Parth0k, Derrith on ur ass with those missiles, you really want to be sprinting more than a couple meters a second so you can catch them trying to fly around a corner/wall for cover... or gives me enough speed to get that last shot on a tank before he makes it over the hill into his redline... They really just turn you into the 'glass cannon' style of heavy, you can have some fun and mobility, but as soon as you get seen by a stacked heavy or find yourself in really any non advantageous position for a heavy - its too late, you're screwed.
Titans of Phoenix > Director > WE DA BUUUUSSSS!
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1154
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Posted - 2014.12.18 15:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Why Brick-Tanked Scouts Were A Problem:
Because they had innate, built-in advantages that were far and away more powerful than other suits (passive range, precision and profile) which left them free to use HP modules without loss of their advantages (as even brick tanked scouts were roughly as fast/faster than their equivalent assault with roughly the same EHP, but vastly superior EWar and two equipment slots including the cloak potential.)
Essentially, brick tanked scouts had many advantages while giving up very little. Now? The situation is a lot better.
Speed Tanked Sentinels:
Well, they move about as fast as an unbricked Assault, with roughly the EHP of a bricked Assault. Assault is far more versatile, having slightly less EHP but better able to fit speed and other modules. Really, a speed heavy is a different way to operate a heavy, but it doesn't have the same built-in advantages that the old brick tanked scouts did, and that's what it boils down to.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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