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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3999
   |
Posted - 2014.12.16 19:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just doing some basic comparison of Gunnlogis and Madrugars in terms of effective HP regeneration for base and typical fit conditions.
Gunnlogi Shield delay to be assumed 4 seconds (Non-depleted)
Madrugar Shield delay to be assumed at 11 seconds (Depleted with max skill - base is 15 seconds)
Gunnlogi Assumed to have no armor modules (Atypical)
Madrugar Assumed to have no shield modules
Gunnlogi Assumed to be fit with 2 Complex Hardeners + 1 Complex Heavy Shield Extender
Madrugar Assumed to be fit with 1 Complex Hardener + 1 Complex 120mm Armor Plate + (Basic/Enhanced/Complex) Heavy Armor Rep
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing
-Summary-
Base Gunnlogi
Time to Full shield Recharge: 20 seconds
Fitted Gunnlogi
Time to Full Shield Recharge: 28 seconds
Madrugar w/Basic Heavy Rep
Time to Full Shield Recharge: 23 Seconds
Time to Full Armor Regeneration (Base): 40 seconds
Time to Full Armor Regeneration (Fitted): 59 seconds
Madrugar w/Enhanced Heavy Rep
Time to Full Shield Recharge: 23 Seconds
Time to Full Armor Regeneration (Base): 36 seconds
Time to Full Armor Regeneration (Fitted): 53 seconds
Madrugar w/Complex Heavy Rep
Time to Full Shield Recharge: 23 Seconds
Time to Full Armor Regeneration (Base): 30 seconds
Time to Full Armor Regeneration (Fitted): 43 seconds
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
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Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
244
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Posted - 2014.12.16 19:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
1. Gunlogi can dual tank
2. Madrugar depends on fit can barely put owt in the high slots unless tank is weakened to an extent
3. Madrugar has better depression
4. Madrugar is faster, nitro added even better
5. Armor regen is passive constant, shield regen is not constant
6. Small turrets can be put on Gunlogi without gimping tank
7. Shield is better against current AV options
What needs to be fixed
8. Shield needs a constant passive regen rate
9. Armor reps go back to active
10. Hardeners offer same resistance amount fro both shield and armor
11. Maddy gets some more CPU to fit stuff
12. Need more modules to favour shield/armor tanking and not dual tanking
13. Need more modules in general and options so more variety to fit them
14. Cant make a thread without taking in other factors when it comes to tanking |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3999
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 19:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
14. Cant make a thread without taking in other factors when it comes to tanking
Aww its my favorite grumpy cat!
But really, you seem like you're assuming I'm offering up a specific opinion in this thread, which I'm not. I'm simply offering up raw calculations for people to discuss, so drop the passive aggressive attitude mmk?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
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Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
244
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 19:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
14. Cant make a thread without taking in other factors when it comes to tanking
Aww its my favorite grumpy cat! But really, you seem like you're assuming I'm offering up a specific opinion in this thread, which I'm not. I'm simply offering up raw calculations for people to discuss, so drop the passive aggressive attitude mmk?
1. Raw calculations are not the be all and end all, other factors always play apart which you cannot ignore |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4001
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 19:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
14. Cant make a thread without taking in other factors when it comes to tanking
Aww its my favorite grumpy cat! But really, you seem like you're assuming I'm offering up a specific opinion in this thread, which I'm not. I'm simply offering up raw calculations for people to discuss, so drop the passive aggressive attitude mmk? 1. Raw calculations are not the be all and end all, other factors always play apart which you cannot ignore
I'm not denying that there are other factors, in fact I even addressed a few in my comments. But you see, the document I made was about regeneration:
1. Armor plates on a Gunnlogi dont affect its shield regen in the slightest, and that is an issue of PG/CPU balance, not regen. Dual tanking should be discouraged via PG/CPU cost.
2. I addressed this in the document comments, did you read them?
3. Turrets have nothing to do with regen, you're assuming I'm trying to say one tank is better than the other
4. Cant fit a nitro with the assumed fit, as addressed in comments. Again unrelated to regen and you're assuming I'm trying to say one tank is better than the other.
5. Delay taken into account in the document. Regen cycles are on 1 second intervals.
6. Again mentioned in the document notes
7. Assumption if that end result is balanced AV options for anti shield and armor. This is a current topic of discussion with Rattati.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
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Shadow of War88
0uter.Heaven
472
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 20:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
x3 rep maddy stands under ads fire and chuckles. Shields cant do that :(
350hp/s vs 164hp/s. Pretty clear who can get more regen using modules.
Also armor reps without delay. Quit picking on shields bro. After 28 seconds shield tanks lose their edge.
& justice for all
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4002
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 20:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shadow of War88 wrote:x3 rep maddy stands under ads fire and chuckles. Shields cant do that :(
350hp/s vs 164hp/s. Pretty clear who can get more regen using modules.
Also armor reps without delay. Quit picking on shields bro. After 28 seconds shield tanks lose their edge.
Triple rep madrugars are so easy to kill....
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
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Shadow of War88
0uter.Heaven
472
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 00:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Shadow of War88 wrote:x3 rep maddy stands under ads fire and chuckles. Shields cant do that :(
350hp/s vs 164hp/s. Pretty clear who can get more regen using modules.
Also armor reps without delay. Quit picking on shields bro. After 28 seconds shield tanks lose their edge. Triple rep madrugars are so easy to kill.... And the point is that after 28 seconds the Shield HAV has recovered all of its HP, which with better hardeners means its sitting at slightly lower eHP than the Armor HAV. The Armor HAV, while it does have a little more eHP, it takes a disproportionately longer time to recover all of its HP. Gunnlogi ends up with 13% less eHP (assuming not using armor plates) but recover its eHP 35% faster (naturally) than a Complex Repped Madrugar. Do you feel this difference in eHP vs recovery time is ok? Or do you feel that the ratio of recovery rate should be the same as the ratio of eHP?
regen needs to be left alone, I don't think gunni should ever fit heavy plates in lows tho. maybe a plex 60mm for a little boost.
again, this is like 2 ants fighting over scraps. In the big picture none of this matters. I can bring a sica, 3 shot at ur tank, miss 1 shot since im a noob, hop out with my dual dmg modded minny mando and fire 3 swarm volleys at u. When u bail ur tank I turn ur suit into swiss cheese with my boundless. GG noob. Or just JLAV u for extra lols.
& justice for all
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4004
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 00:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Could you answer my question? Do you think the difference in eHP should be the same as the difference in effective regen? Or is it fine that it's different? And if so could you explain your reasoning? I'm actually trying to have a conversation here
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15993
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Posted - 2014.12.17 00:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:1. Gunlogi can dual tank
2. Madrugar depends on fit can barely put owt in the high slots unless tank is weakened to an extent
3. Madrugar has better depression
4. Madrugar is faster, nitro added even better
5. Armor regen is passive constant, shield regen is not constant
6. Small turrets can be put on Gunlogi without gimping tank
7. Shield is better against current AV options
What needs to be fixed
8. Shield needs a constant passive regen rate
9. Armor reps go back to active
10. Hardeners offer same resistance amount fro both shield and armor
11. Maddy gets some more CPU to fit stuff
12. Need more modules to favour shield/armor tanking and not dual tanking
13. Need more modules in general and options so more variety to fit them
14. Cant make a thread without taking in other factors when it comes to tanking
Listing things is ******* irritating as hell....but oh so easy to reply to. Please paragraph.
1. Yup that's no good
2. Yup
3. All tanks need some barrel depression.
4. Couldn't telly you why? This whole huge mobility disparity is terrible.
5. Regen can be made to be constant. One thing about shield regen is you don't need a module to have almost better reps than an armour tank. If you are a tank and not using enfilade and defilade you are not tanking well.
6.Yup
7. Yup
8. Yes and that rate needs to be initially low, but higher than on armour HAV, and modifiable as a primary means of tanking. See BLARPY and the Drake.
9. Yup
10. Yup standardised at 30% leads to good eHP values for both tanks but not too powerful
11. Yup
12. Yup
13. Yup
14. Yes but Pokey is making the assumption based on information provided by the community.
This is how things are. The shield HAV is better, it has more potential eHP, Regen, and fire power than a comparable armour tank or in fact any tank of its tier should.
@ Shadow of War...no Caldari tech should ever be able to effectively armour tank. The Gunlogi is currently OP as hell and the Maddy weak as hell in a role it was not designed for. It's not about getting good its about determined how HAV and other vehicles should work and making them fair to fight against with all forms of AV and Vehicle content.
In all respects a Madrugar is an easy kill in this game whereas a Gunnlogi is not, Pilot skill is factored in certainly but statistically the Shield HAV does everything it should not.
Can have
-High eHP
-High HP Regen
-High eHP regen
-Great Mobility
-Great Fitting Capacity
-Can Dual Tank
No HAV not matter how much SP you spend should ever be able to achieve all of these things on one hull.
You either select eHP and less regen, or low static eHP and powerful active modules....or somewhere in between.
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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VikingKong iBUN
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
307
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Posted - 2014.12.17 01:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
4. Madrugar is faster, nitro added even better
No.
Maybe it's faster at moving in a straight line, but a Gunnlogi turns like 10x faster. It's easy for a Gunnlogi to escape from or flank a Madrugar because it has a huge bonus to mobility in comparison. |
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