DUST Search - Thoughts about METALOCK

ZDub 303 wrote:

Kaeru Nayiri wrote:

Secondly, this is totally against everything New Eden. I understand that game play trumps lore but seriously, this is beyond anything ever done before. The closest thing to meta locking is no capital ships in high sec space.

Is it really though? If you look at FW in EVE (the closest thing they have to structured pvp) you can quite quickly find this information.

Quote:

Plex naming convention

FW plexes come with different names, all starting with the faction name (ie Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar) they belong to, may be followed or not by an adjective (Novice, Small, Medium or Large) then ending with a flavor noun like Installation, Compound, Outpost. The adjective indicates the Plex size for the purpose of claiming it and the restrictions that may apply :

Novice, small-sized plex only allows T1 and faction frigates
Small, small-sized plex only allows T1, T2 and faction frigates frigates, T1 and T2 destroyers
Medium, medium sized plex only allows T1, T2 and faction frigates frigates, T1 and T2 destroyers, T1, T2 and faction cruisers
Large is without any acceleration gate thus no restriction (yes, it allows even capital ships in).

In fact, acceleration gates locking out specific ships from missions are quite pervasive all around the game.

I disagree with your point, metalocking is not against everything New Eden, not in the slightest.

Source: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Factional_Warfare_Dungeons

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Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 299	Posted - 2014.12.16 08:41:00 - [1] - Quote Since the aim to implement the thing called Metalock is on the table, I wanted to collect some thoughts about this in the features/ideas forum. CCP Rattati wrote: We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse. Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards This is what I "know", or what Rattati wrote. I know there are a ton of threads with suggestions for achieving something like this, but I didnt find them yet. Maybe we can collect some links here for everyone to discuss productively. The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5798	Posted - 2014.12.16 08:59:00 - [2] - Quote Meta lock unless done a very specific way will basically screw AV completely since vehicles are balanced against proto AV at all tiers. STD heavy and light AV weapons are only nominally useful against sicas and Soma. Militia grade vehicles. Never mind dropships. LAVs already shrug off standard AV fire with impunity. So that's the problem I see occurring. Tanks will be the big thing at lowerr tiers until the drivers get into the big kid pool and find out how the big kids fight. There's going to be a lot of screaming at the gaps where people jump up tiers. Both from people who go up and get ripped apart and from the people below those reasy to move up wanting the vets forced upward so THEY don't get stomped. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3389	Posted - 2014.12.16 08:59:00 - [3] - Quote Before meta level locking is implemented, the dropsuit tiers have to be addressed. Otherwise someone is going to figure out a way to work around meta level lock by using protosuits with standard modules to stomp newbros. Some people will just want to pad their KDR no matter what. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183529&find=unread EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5799	Posted - 2014.12.16 10:40:00 - [4] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Before meta level locking is implemented, the dropsuit tiers have to be addressed. Otherwise someone is going to figure out a way to work around meta level lock by using protosuits with standard modules to stomp newbros. Some people will just want to pad their KDR no matter what. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183529&find=unread I was thinking quafe suits with viziams honestly. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3389	Posted - 2014.12.16 10:52:00 - [5] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Before meta level locking is implemented, the dropsuit tiers have to be addressed. Otherwise someone is going to figure out a way to work around meta level lock by using protosuits with standard modules to stomp newbros. Some people will just want to pad their KDR no matter what. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183529&find=unread I was thinking quafe suits with viziams honestly. Indeed. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 288	Posted - 2014.12.16 11:55:00 - [6] - Quote Have fun getting into matches with 4 vs 4 on the previous tiers, everyone will just play for the better stuff in the free for all. Then all the lower level playing guys will complain about how you have to do the last tier to get anything good. People should just get over the fact people are going to use proto because it's what they played so long and worked so hard to unlock. You gonna buy a Lambo and keep that thing in the garage because it'll make everyone else on the road jealous? G.L.O.R.Y Soldier, I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3 -Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5804	Posted - 2014.12.16 13:12:00 - [7] - Quote Valid point. The only reason I play pubs honestly is because by and large facwar sucks and is less rewarding. Go figure, right? Free fits forever! EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
BL4CKST4R Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 3480	Posted - 2014.12.16 15:23:00 - [8] - Quote That system requires tiercide, or everything will go bonkers. For example in tier one, you could have a militia heavy running a proto weapon murdering everything, while the noobies have no way to counter because their suit as a whole is less efficient than the weapon! Also as stated above tanks will ruin the tiers. I think all weapons should be tiercided to just one weapon unlocked at level one, that gets better with your skills, and then variants unlocked at level 3 and 5 (but no ranks like militia basic bla bla). For dropsuits they should have ranks but the same slots, only cpu/pg increasing. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 881	Posted - 2014.12.16 17:48:00 - [9] - Quote If anyone wants a lesson in meta level based matchmaking, take a look at a game called Robocraft. It's free to play and available on steam, so there's no reason not to. It works very well, with the exception of people 'cherrypicking' meta level. In that game you used to see very experienced players with the most basic equipment except one very powerful gun that one-shot actual new players - just to collect the tears of the naive. The same principle applies to Dust. For example a protosuit with basic armor plates is more powerful than a STD suit with CPX modules. That means the amount of "meta" added with specific items needs to be balanced on a per-item basis. This would result in a PRO suit having a much higher "meta" property than e.g. a PRO damage mod. A fitted normal HAV hull would then have a "meta-sum" that is at the same level as a proto fitted AV suit. Another approach is to vary the way the "meta-sum" of a fit is calculated. If this is calculated using the the sum of the n-th power of each fitted item's meta property (with n being larger than 1) you are giving a penalty to 'uneven' fittings where few items have a much larger meta property than most others. In summary there are many ways to skin this particular cat, you just need to be aware of the pitfalls.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 321	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:13:00 - [10] - Quote I am completely against meta level locking for matchmaking purposes. First of all it will segregate the player base and divide them up to even tinier portions. We do not want pubs to have FW queuing times, do we? Secondly, this is totally against everything New Eden. I understand that game play trumps lore but seriously, this is beyond anything ever done before. The closest thing to meta locking is no capital ships in high sec space. Thirdly, the goal that is trying to be achieved can be done more eloquently by refocusing rewards for players who play efficiently. Right now there is ISK, SP and Combat Statistics to motivate a player to win. The KDR itself is horrible in this regard, as it encourages using the best gear possible. We need to implement ISK Destroyed / ISK Lost AND we need to reward the upkeep of this stat. Naturally curbing players to using basic and advanced gear because it's their own choice, for their own benefit, is SIGNIFICANTLY better than simply locking out meta levels from match types. I would also suggest that kill assists and guardian points contribute to ISK destroyed, for logis and other support roles. We need to come up with good ideas to reward players for being ISK efficient.

Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 127	Posted - 2014.12.18 21:03:00 - [11] - Quote This related idea provides another kind of Tier system that does not rely on Meta Level, but addresses what I see as the main problems Meta Locking is meant to address. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=184780&find=unread Please read, like, and/or contribute. FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 303	Posted - 2014.12.19 11:37:00 - [12] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Secondly, this is totally against everything New Eden. I understand that game play trumps lore but seriously, this is beyond anything ever done before. The closest thing to meta locking is no capital ships in high sec space. Not sure if this is right. EVE does this already, though more elegantly through space and NPC law enforcement. To get the good stuff you need to be in Low Sec space, to be (relatively) safe you need to be in Hi Sec. These are seperated through often many jumps and areas and as stated above NPC police that will punish breaking the rules. The only question is how they could achieve this type of "freedom of movement, but seperation in value" in Dust... There are a ton of vaild points coming in so far. Thanks guys! The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3325	Posted - 2014.12.19 14:10:00 - [13] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Secondly, this is totally against everything New Eden. I understand that game play trumps lore but seriously, this is beyond anything ever done before. The closest thing to meta locking is no capital ships in high sec space. Is it really though? If you look at FW in EVE (the closest thing they have to structured pvp) you can quite quickly find this information. Quote: Plex naming convention FW plexes come with different names, all starting with the faction name (ie Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar) they belong to, may be followed or not by an adjective (Novice, Small, Medium or Large) then ending with a flavor noun like Installation, Compound, Outpost. The adjective indicates the Plex size for the purpose of claiming it and the restrictions that may apply : Novice, small-sized plex only allows T1 and faction frigates Small, small-sized plex only allows T1, T2 and faction frigates frigates, T1 and T2 destroyers Medium, medium sized plex only allows T1, T2 and faction frigates frigates, T1 and T2 destroyers, T1, T2 and faction cruisers Large is without any acceleration gate thus no restriction (yes, it allows even capital ships in). In fact, acceleration gates locking out specific ships from missions are quite pervasive all around the game. I disagree with your point, metalocking is not against everything New Eden, not in the slightest. Source: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Factional_Warfare_Dungeons
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2404	Posted - 2014.12.19 17:27:00 - [14] - Quote +1 Hansei. This is prolly the core topic for DUST or any other game set in new EDEN and it's a genuinely tough problem(imo it's even bigger than that - this whole conversation should be a Gamasutra article). Peeps are already pointing out some of the logistical difficulties that come with trying to separate matches by metatier in DUST. It could turn into a godawful time-consuming can of worms for devs and players alike. Anti-Metatier Suggestions What's more powerful than gear? Teamwork! We need to sex up teamwork for new players(up to 10 million sp). Proposed: Squadded new players get double WP/ISK for all actions. Squadded new players on voice comms get triple WP for all actions. The corps we contract ourselves out to would bonus these behaviors. What's more powerful than teamwork? Intel! Give un-ewar skilled individual mercs a small TACNET range/precision buff for being in a squad(please keep reading it's not OP) Why? Appeal to peeps' risk aversion, social primates love that stuff. Level the playing field between vets and noobs. Lorewise it's easy to motivate: Tacnet is a distributed peer-to-peer network run on dropsuits, more nodes = better network. Must calibrate buffs carefully to avoid OPness. Range/Precision buff values must be asymptotic to full core ewar skills. Calculate average over squad for precision & range ewar skills, then lift lower-than-average members' effective skills to that average. This preserves our hard-won ewar balancing and doesn't over-buff. Gives absolutely no advantage to vets & motivates peeps to train ewar. If we wanted to sweeten the pot we could add a 1% per squad member on top of the very gentle 'averaging' buff. Pro Metatier Suggestions <- really don't support this but Rattati want us to think about it, so...) Make meta cost non-linear: peeps are already min maxing BFG builds for tiers, let's make them pay. Rattati may have already done this, based on his 100, 200, 300 scale. For presentation purposes, lets just square the Meta Level(hereafter ML): ML 1 costs 1-¦ = 1 to fit, ML 2 costs 2-¦ = 4 to fit, etc. Set your Meta level locks around that squared number: Tier 1 has 25 ML-¦ fitting points, Tier 2 has 49, etc. Doesn't have to be square but it does have to be a power. We could cube ML, meaning that Viziam costs you 125 fitting points. The higher the power the more we're penalizing min-max builds. Use separate meta-tallies for weapons, suit, hislots, loslots, equip, grenades. This is really a more restricting substitute for the squaring mechanic posted above. This method puts a hard restriction on using higher meta gear in lower tier matches. Add a variable to the matchmaking criteria: Total Core Skills. Matchmake based on (Metalvl + Core skills). A mechanic like this would virtually force sp-boosted vets to use STD gear in matches where newbros could use advanced/proto. Coupled with either of the mechanics above vets would have no advantage over new players other than game knowledge and personal skill. You can't do better than that. It's hard to motivate this lorewise, but maybe we can turn it into a win-win. I imagine a conversation that goes like the one posted below: PSN: RationalSpark
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2404	Posted - 2014.12.19 17:27:00 - [15] - Quote Funkmaster Whale: 'You've gotta be frakkin' kidding me, this is absurd. You pay me to f'in kill people, that's what i do'. Mordus Public Contract Recruiter: 'Oh, you will still kill people, and lots of them. Look, Mr. Whale, we've known you for a long time now, and the simple truth of the matter is i could give you a sharpened stick and a loincloth, send you out on an acquisition contract, and you'd come back with the facility delivered to our control and that stick caked in brains and dripping with blood.' Funkmaster Whale: 'Kittenshit. You make it sound sooooo easy. I need that gear differential to do my job. It's a force multiplier and often the deciding factor in whether we 'acquire' your precious production facility or not. Those mercs may be new to the immortality game but they were all soldiers in their former lives. You cannot pull this crap with me.' Mordus Public Contract Recruiter: 'I feel for you Mr. Whale , i really do. I couldn't do what you do...honestly, i stand in awe of what you accomplish on the battlefield.....but this is coming from higher up than me. Mordu's been looking at stats and models compiled by our analytics guy.' Funkmaster Whale: Analytics! WTF are analytics! Are they somthing i can put between my loincloth and a frakkin FORGE GUN? Have you ever seen what a forge gun can do? You have No IDEA where you nutsac goes when some SoB like Dogofwar Matari is swinging a 9K330 in your direction! Analytics! Bah! Who is this analytics sh!t anyway, i wanna have a word with him'. Mordus Public Contract Recruiter: I believe it's Mr. Rattati in the design group, we picked him up when we 'acquired' one of Duvolle's nullsec darkplants for the GK-13 Burst Assault Plasma Rifle - which is turning into a sweet little money maker, i might add. Anyway, after a....rather messy...change of leadership Rattati stepped up and has been doing a bang-up job in planning & design. Funkmaster Whale: 'Where is he? I'll show him what a bang-up job really means. He can analyze that for awhile'. Mordus Public Contract Recruiter: 'Forget that. Look, Mordus offering to sweeten the pot. He wants the proto gear hoarded for higher level contracts - he's willing to subsidize the vets who take these low-level contracts, says the monies earned in these low level contracts will set up the experienced guys with the finances for the proto gear they'll need when they make their bid for their own planetary 'acquisitions'. Triple rates on ISK payout. How's that sound, Mr Whale?' * The author would like to offer absolutely no apologies for the wanton and gleeful misrepresentation of parties concerned - especially the implication that Rattati is employed by nullsec criminal orginizations. * PSN: RationalSpark
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 355	Posted - 2014.12.19 18:08:00 - [16] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Secondly, this is totally against everything New Eden. I understand that game play trumps lore but seriously, this is beyond anything ever done before. The closest thing to meta locking is no capital ships in high sec space. Is it really though? If you look at FW in EVE (the closest thing they have to structured pvp) you can quite quickly find this information. Quote: Plex naming convention FW plexes come with different names, all starting with the faction name (ie Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar) they belong to, may be followed or not by an adjective (Novice, Small, Medium or Large) then ending with a flavor noun like Installation, Compound, Outpost. The adjective indicates the Plex size for the purpose of claiming it and the restrictions that may apply : Novice, small-sized plex only allows T1 and faction frigates Small, small-sized plex only allows T1, T2 and faction frigates frigates, T1 and T2 destroyers Medium, medium sized plex only allows T1, T2 and faction frigates frigates, T1 and T2 destroyers, T1, T2 and faction cruisers Large is without any acceleration gate thus no restriction (yes, it allows even capital ships in). In fact, acceleration gates locking out specific ships from missions are quite pervasive all around the game. I disagree with your point, metalocking is not against everything New Eden, not in the slightest. Source: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Factional_Warfare_Dungeons You make valid points.
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 308	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:12:00 - [17] - Quote Lol thats some sweet creative writing there Matari. The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2409	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:09:00 - [18] - Quote Hansei Kaizen wrote: Lol thats some sweet creative writing there Matari. With some serious trial and error I am sure they can come up with a decent matchmaking system. I think the really tough thing is to preserve the feeling of continuity within the game world. Things that are self-explanatory: Academy - New soldiers have to be trained and get used to be immortal. Thats a no brainer. Public contracts - You are a mercenary, working for the highest bidder. Private and public corporations and institutions. Clear. FW contracts - You acquire missions that are organized by the military apperatuses of the empires. Clear as can be. PC - You fight for your corporation in a war for land and resources with other mercenary corps. This is a ploy by the empires to keep the mercenarys occupied and from overthrowing the empires governments. Crazy plot there, but understandable. What isnt so clear: So within all this, wtf does Metalock, or any matchmaking really mean? Why would anyone do this? Why would corporations artificially limit themselves, if they are not limited by their resources (ISK)? New mercs simply cant afford it or dont have the skills, that is clear. Good question, my bolding. One factor still unbalancing the game is the PC ISK. Mercs can afford to run pubs at a loss for the sake of stat padding. It's a problem CCP created out of their long-term negligence of PC. Problem is the ISK now exists and we are distorting Pub match design around it. It's something we'll have to figure out anyway because the same thing will happen on a much larger scale when/if we integrate with the EVE economy. PSN: RationalSpark
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 309	Posted - 2014.12.20 10:12:00 - [19] - Quote Yeah, would be wonderful if ISK meant something to proto stompers. We could use ISK payout as a tool. Now it doesnt really mean anything. As it seems some people just run proto all day without limit. I am still a fan of the Sec Status and ISK payout ratio that works so great in EVE. How could such a thing be integrated in Dust by tuning values and numbers? The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo


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