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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1109
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Posted - 2014.12.14 08:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi folks, It's me again, harping on about ADSs and small missile turrets. This time I have good reason though:
CCP Rattati wrote:Vehicles Community proposed stats requested: Anti Infantry Small Missiles Anti Vehicle Small Missiles
So, I have created the following spreadsheet: Small Missiles and ADS Skills v1
Here's a TL; DR for the spreadsheet: - Current turret has a blend of anti-vehicle and anti-infantry power but is slow, more about endurance than fast application of damage. - Rapid Fragmented turret which excels at anti-infantry application, but has low endurance, making it about very fast actions. Multiple weaker missiles per second, requiring many repeated hits to destroy infantry targets, but a higher ROF to enable such. - Rapid Shaped turret which excels at anti-vehicle application, with high direct damage but low endurance, meaning it must destroy its target quickly. Multiple weaker missiles per second, lower ROF than the Fragmented, much higher direct damage, compensated by a vastly reduced splash effectiveness. - Both rapid turrets have low ammo reserves making supply depot trips common and limiting the engagement times. - Long reloads on the rapid turrets make them very 'burst'-y type weapons: they do damage above the current turret in their niche during the firing time their clip entails, but the long reload makes hovering over a target less useful as much time will be spent reloading. - The rapid fire rates make strafing runs much more feasible but the balance between ROF and damage is such that the DPS is relatively restrained and an 'extended run' is more what is use: essentially the ADS would drop in, hose an area for a few seconds then fly away to reload. - Higher fitting costs than the current turret make it less appealing to fit on a higher endurance vehicle such as a normal dropship or HAV, but still possible without entirely destroying the fit. - Change to the racial ADS skills giving a turret fitting bonus instead of the reserve ammo bonus to promote multiple turrets on an ADS/making it less penalising to fit multiple turrets.
The basic premise is that there will be three variants of the small missile turret (possibly two, if the current turret is removed) that operate with different designs: the current turret is a good blend of anti-infantry power and reasonable AV efficacy but with slow application, making it an endurance weapon; a rapid fire anti-infantry turret capable of saturating an area quickly but suffering when exposed to long engagements; and a rapid fire anti-vehicle turret capable of applying a lot of direct damage but suffering from vastly reduced efficacy against targets that can evade direct impacts.
There are a couple of additional changes that I am suggesting that go hand in hand with my proposed turrets: - Altering the racial ADS skill, such that one of the downsides of the new turrets is maintained (low reserve ammunition, making endurance an issue) and to promote the use of the new turrets on the Python (since it is a missile platform.) - The changes to missiles are predicated on the small blaster turret being optimised/balanced such that the Incubus is capable of running an anti-infantry weapon, otherwise the balance between the two remains improper. That is the ideal that the missile suggestion is based upon, though the implementation of the new missile types would also somewhat balance the Python's ability to engage multiple targets
I am open to feedback and welcome comments and criticisms. I've tried to make the spreadsheet as accessible as possible and have added notes to some of the cells to explain what certain stats are and what they represent. If anyone has a wish to collaborate on the creation, please send me an in game mail to 'Halla Murr' (which is my main character) with your email, and I can add you with editing rights.
Possible counterbalance changes that may be necessary to implement: - Reduce the base HP of ADSs (possibly just the Python, as the primary recipient of the turrets) since time in a danger zone would be reduced. - Agility/top speed reduction, such that setting up a run effectively is more important, since the ability to alter path once committed would be reduced. - Reduction to either and/or both the direct/splash damage of the current missile turret such that it is less powerful, promoting the use of the rapid turrets while maintaining its middle ground (albeit without as much effectiveness.) - Other that I can't think of right now.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1121
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Posted - 2014.12.14 19:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Anyone have any comments?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1122
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Posted - 2014.12.14 21:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Not a bad idea, honestly. I think the low ammo is a problem though, so unless we get more reliable redline supply depot spawns or some form of vehicle logistics, I think it should be kept at the same ratio as at least infantry ammo (I think it's like 4-5 total magazines). If it's anything like the ACR, it will still need to reload quite often. Indeed, I tried to make ammo a sort of balancing point, since there are few redline areas which do not have an inaccessible to dropship depot. And there is always the ability to recall. That said, an extra clip or two might not be remiss.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Also, the ADS doesn't need nerfed any more, defensively. You will still need to float-still and target a specific person if you want to kill it, same as currently, strafing won't kill too often I'd imagine. No, not necessarily, it was more of a, "this may need to happen, but maybe not" kind of thought. However, these turrets would enable much more mobile bombardment of an area, such that the dropship is overall less vulnerable to AV, since the DS's accuracy needs less precision allowing them to remain mobile and keep some speed up.
Anyway, I don't think an HP nerf would be needed, but I thought I'd put it in as a consideration if the changes warranted it if it was implemented.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:One of the big things a lot of people have been ignoring is how these missiles will work on LAVs and tanks. Thinking about this I've considered that it might be best to develop specific turrets for each vehicle, since it would be impossible to make a one-size-fits-all turret, imo. Yeah, they'd be pretty effective on other platforms too, though as I put in the spreadsheet the rapid turrets have 25% more fitting requirements than the standard turret, while the ADS at max racial/turret fitting optimisation actually uses less than a standard turret.
But yes, a LAV using a rapid turret would be pretty capable of good drive-bys (which would be a good thing) and HAVs could mount a top turret rapid shaped to help with AV and to ward off DSs.
So overall you think they're pretty reasonable? Do you feel the damage, DPS and speed of application are fine? Edit: and thanks for the response, good to have some feedback.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1140
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Posted - 2014.12.17 17:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Does anyone else have any opinions on this?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1155
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Posted - 2014.12.18 16:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
a brackers wrote:Definately +1. However I would recommend 4 or 5 clips, not 3 Thanks for the feedback , considering both you and Vulpes said the same thing I'll bump the total ammo up to 100.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1160
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Posted - 2014.12.18 19:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Question: would these replace the current missile launcher or coexist with it? My first thought is coexistence, my numbers were based on the normal turret with the intention that any of the three could be used; the standard turret is better over a longer period of time and is more of an alpha weapon, given its higher per shot damage.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Concern: It might create too many objects and effecs/explosions for the game unnecessarily. Perhaps keeping the DPS per clip the same and lowering the rof to save on game resources? Missiles are not hitscan weapons so we shouldn't be too liberal with this. That could be a reasonable concern, but it's not something that I know about! Though we do already have the large missile turret which has similar ROF. If the large missile turret doesn't have issues, the rapid turrets shouldn't either.
But, if that concern is well founded, a ROF/DPS adjustment is certainly doable.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Concern: I really want a high alpha missile that favors accuracy over ease of application. How does that sit with you, in your opinion? Well, considering that this suggestion is based on the idea of fitting to an ADS, application of damage is a major facet of the balancing act. A powerful alpha shot could work, but you'd still need to factor in splash damage/radius. Are you thinking a high direct shot with slow ROF?
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Proposition: Have the anti infantry missile have higher rof, less damage per missile and same splash as current, with tiny bonus to direct hits. Have the anti vehicle missile have lower rof, much higher direct hit, much smaller splash radius while maintaining suppressive splash damage. 1. Is that same splash radius or damage? As above, part of the issue with DS suppression and accuracy is the ease of application: especially with 'strafing' (supposedly what ADSs are supposed to do) where you have a limited amount of time on target, having a small splash radius essentially equates to needing direct hits in the first place. Could you suggest some numbers based on either the current or my proposed stats? Are you thinking of slowing the rapid, or speeding up the current? What kind of ratio are you thinking of?
2. Again, are you thinking lower ROF than the current launcher? Do you feel that the suggested rapid shaped is insufficient in this role (it does have very low splash damage; do you think it needs more, with its lower radius)?
Thanks for the feedback though, I greatly appreciate it, just not entirely sure I understand your suggestions and want to clarify before incorporating them.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1160
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Posted - 2014.12.18 20:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Thanks for addressing everything as professionally as you always do ! I will try to be more clear, I realize I could have explained better. I was trying to describe those examples comparing them to our current missile launcher, already in game. I try my best! I think I understand what you're getting at now.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Again, these numbers are just meant to give you an idea of what I am imagining, I realize some of this might seem broken at a glance if you don't consider clip size and dps. As you can tell, I am against having any more splash then the current missile launcher does, and would rather see the Fragmented version focus on RoF more than increased splash. To that end, I would gladly take more RoF for the Fragmented if it comes out balanced, as you have it so nicely done in your spreadsheet. Thanks for reading this !
Ok, so you feel that an increase to splash radius is too much (or to 4m at least anyway)? With that in mind, do you feel a DPS or splash radius reduction is more appropriate? I ask because, in my mind, the rapid turrets should be all about application of damage: the current turret is able to apply a lot of damage, but requires time and accuracy; the rapid turret is able to apply the damage more accurately but applies less damage in a shorter time.
Essentially a hierarchy exists (in my head at least): Most Damage Overall: Small Missile Best Application vs Infantry: Frag Rapid Best Application vs Vehicles: Shaped Rapid
I've made a new sheet on the document with some preliminary ideas for a different Shaped turret, have a look and see what you think.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1160
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Posted - 2014.12.18 20:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:I also want to point out that if I was to step back for a moment and pretend all three of these were available right now, I would probably still pick the current missile launcher over the others as the benefits of focusing with Fragmented or Shaped do not seem to outweigh the versatility of the Original. Maybe I am not thinking broadly enough.
Maybe I should not have commented about your Fragmented version, it seems novel enough that I would at least want to bring it to a fight where I know there will be large clusters of enemies. Heh, that's sort of the intention: the Frag lets you hit infantry reliably but sacrifices in AV potential - specifically it gives you far greater application; the Shaped gives you far more rapid application of damage AV-wise, but the vastly reduced splash radius/damage makes it far less useful vs infantry. The current turret would remain a blkend of both, but require far more extended use and aim; to apply the current turret's damage you need to be more accurate than the Frag and ensure you land each hit compared to the Shaped's rapid application and more forgiving nature about misses.
That's the intention anyway. And if the standard turret were to be removed, you'd have one turret for each type with limited overlap, making the missile turret far less jack-of-all-trades.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1160
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Posted - 2014.12.18 20:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:All I want is my 10% rof back per level. Seriously, even 6% is good, 7% better. As much as I appreciate the bump, that's not useful feedback!.
Rattati has said that he wants numbers for alternate turrets, and that the old ROF was too good. I can sort of see that: with a high ROF and the current damage the Python obliterated infantry and vehicles alike, with little downside due to the multipurpose nature of the missile.
By introducing two variants that function more akin to the rail/blaster (ie, one variant for AV and one for AP) then we find more balance by having no/less vehicles with the ability to engage all targets with equal effectiveness.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1161
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Posted - 2014.12.18 21:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Secondly, about Small Blasters, I have been practicing with them quite a bit and I have come to some conclusions. The small blaster is VERY EFFECTIVE on the gunner side if you stack skills with your gunner. Damage application of it makes it inferior to missiles but still EXTREMELY effective. More than people realize. The only thing left, that it needs, is for it's splash damage to be fixed or improved. I currently believe that it's splash damage is incorrectly set to 0 dmg.
The Incubus skill could be modified so that instead of RoF for the Rails and Blasters, it would be RoF for the Rails and larger splash radius for the Blasters. This would allow the blaster to be better balanced in the air, without becoming OP on the ground with LAVs and Tanks. I've been thinking about Blasters recently: would just straight up increasing damage help in their application? One of the things that is an issue with them is tplike that of the HMG: many shots simply go wild. While increasing damage would also make it more powerful in general, but it doesn't break shield regen on vehicles, and beating armour regen is even harder.
Increasing damage directly makes it a monster vs infantry, which it should be. What do you reckon?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1161
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Posted - 2014.12.18 21:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Right now DPS isn't even the only factor with small rails, as you can only get 9~10 shots off before overheating with max skills as a pilot. Adding cool down, reload , charge up time(0.2s unmodifiable between shots) and RoF to all the factors and we may end up with Incubus pilots using shaped missiles, just because it's easier to use with similar DPS on paper. Maybe even BETTER dps when you take the cool down breaks into account. Hmm, that's a fair point.
What about a quicker reload speed, but keeping the clip down even further? With the provisional Shaped numbers, it's doing 5200 damage in 7.5s; the Rail is doing 3473.6 in about 4.5s. That's 693 DPS vs 772 DPS with some pretty big differences in time to apply.
With a 5 clip vs a 24 clip, we're looking at playing the reload of the Shaped off against the overheat/cooldown of the Railgun. I'll need to pull up the numbers for the overheat/cooldown to compare.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1172
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Posted - 2014.12.20 05:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Trying to take all that into account and making the shaped missile good without overlapping onto small rails is a tall order. Indeed. I've put some numbers up in another thread because it appears that the small railgun builds up heat too quickly. If that's the case, then the small railgun is able to output a lot of damage over time.
Assuming that it should be able to fire 16 shots without overheating (over 9.95s) that's 434.2x16= 6947.2 damage: something that would be immensely difficult to rival with the currently proposed Shaped (I really need to differentiate between the Shaped based on your suggestion and the Rapid Shaped ) considering the Shaped gets less damage per clip (5200 @PRO) than the Rail gets per overheat (6947.)
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:On the plus side, I will be posting some small blaster videos here tonight (hopefully). My tests show that the small blaster is very effective in the gunner side of an Incubus with stacked skills, but it is so unforgiving. You either kill someone in 0.27 seconds or all the shots miss until overheat. I really think the splash needs to be checked for bugs or incorrect values I think the issue I have with your statement here is: " with stacked skills" Unless skill stacking is an intrinsic part of the game, around which balance is built, then something requiring skill stacking to be effective simply means that it is not working as intended: that same small blaster, then, doesn't work when put on an HAV, LAV or NDS, because they don't have skill stacking to apply.
The blaster needs to operate effectively in and of itself, without skills required (ie, it doesn't require +30% ROF to function at it's intended anti-infantry role) or else it is underpowered. If that means a rebalance of the ADS skill is needed, then fair enough.
Sir Snugglz wrote:While changing the radius and dmg is good, I believe the main differential should be the rocket's travel speed (note: im not talking about rate of fire) I can agree with a change to missile travel speed, it's something that I've suggested before and would support. That said, keeping travel speed as a balancing factor for the missiles versus the rail/blaster would be somewhat useful. Missiles could be somewhat more flexible as a weapon, but they'd have to account for something in addition.
Also, as an aside, with an increased radius/splash DPS, the requirement to account for travel speed is reduced somewhat (for the AP variant anyway.)
Sir Snugglz wrote:Anti vehicle missiles should be slow high damage projectiles while anti infantry are fast low damage projectiles. Again this stats are exaggerated but it gives you a clearer picture. Yeah, I understand your point. Have you looked at the proposed Shaped variant change? It should be the fourth sheet, after the Shaped Rapid one. I feel that covers your idea for the AV variant and I must admit that I am warming to that turret for AV work.
Sir Snugglz wrote:Anti infantry missiles are high speed, high accurate, very low damage, area of denial (not killing - expect lots of assists not kills) missiles. This however I have some issue with: while a small missile turret shouldn't simply obliterate infantry the moment it points in their direction, it should be a reasonable threat. With too low damage, the turret becomes essentially irrelevant and too inefficient for its role. If the turret is not a sufficient threat to infantry, they will be able to ignore it.
Do you feel that the Rapid Fragmented variant I proposed is too effective? Is this because of the DPS? Because of the combined DPS and splash radius? Frankly, I felt that the requirement to land five shots on target per second somewhat of a balancing point, and one of the issues I am uncertain of how to broach is that of dispersion: it could be that we make the dispersion fairly low, but degrade quickly.
Again, not sure how to deal with dispersion, but that could make the RFML more reasonable, if that is a concern. Another consideration I had for it was to potentially reduce ADS EHP by an amount to account for their greater effectiveness with these turrets. I don't think it'd be necessary, but it's a thought.
Anyway, I greatly appreciate the feedback (especially from a known top gun ) and hope I can work out some more ideas to add to the proposal that you feel would be reasonable.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1185
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Posted - 2014.12.21 14:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Does anyone else have any feedback on these ideas?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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