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Buff Shields dont nerf armour.

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PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 377	Posted - 2014.12.15 20:56:00 - [31] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: PLAYSTTION wrote: Armour is only more effective because they can have more hp and better reps without sacrificing much. Shield are to low and require modules to make them better. Just improve every module a little and they will be balanced. Could you explain to me why you consider armor reps to be better than shield regen? Armor, with max skills, needs to stack about 3 Complex armor reps to match the natural regen of your average shield suit. Armor sacrifices 3 slots to match Shields 0 Slots. That's hardly "giving up very little". Now shields do have the delay, yes, but their potential regen rate is MUCH MUCH higher than Armor could ever hope to achieve. Delay + Significantly High Regen Potential vs No Delay + Significiantly lower Regen Potential. Armor Reps are not better than shield reps, nor are shield reps better than armor reps. They're simply different. No delay. and can achieve the same reps as using and advanced energizer. Gassault Calogi - Ranked #763 on the forums `- Open Beta Vet - 32mil sp - - GFC, GJR Approved -`
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3983	Posted - 2014.12.15 21:10:00 - [32] - Quote PLAYSTTION wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: PLAYSTTION wrote: Armour is only more effective because they can have more hp and better reps without sacrificing much. Shield are to low and require modules to make them better. Just improve every module a little and they will be balanced. Could you explain to me why you consider armor reps to be better than shield regen? Armor, with max skills, needs to stack about 3 Complex armor reps to match the natural regen of your average shield suit. Armor sacrifices 3 slots to match Shields 0 Slots. That's hardly "giving up very little". Now shields do have the delay, yes, but their potential regen rate is MUCH MUCH higher than Armor could ever hope to achieve. Delay + Significantly High Regen Potential vs No Delay + Significiantly lower Regen Potential. Armor Reps are not better than shield reps, nor are shield reps better than armor reps. They're simply different. No delay. and can achieve the same reps as using and advanced energizer. The same reps but has to sacrifice far more slots to do so. They're not equivalent then. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 187	Posted - 2014.12.15 21:22:00 - [33] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: To balance shields, just a few small changes would go a long way. 3. Give Minmitar suits recharge delays lower than the current Caldari ones (except scouts, which should just switch delays between Min and Cal), buff recharge rate slightly on the Min and Cal, and slightly increase Cal delays. If I've good understood. You wanna nerf the Caldari recharge delay ? And buff the Minmatar's ? Hum... No. Caldari are shield tankers, and have the best shield regen. Minmatar are double-tanking, fast (speed) and have an amazing stamina, but their regen must be the second( after Caldari in shield and after Gallente in armor). So give them the best recharge delay ? I think it's not a good idea at all. Minmatar are already the best assault (with the amarr) because they are the more speed, they have an amazing stamina and stamina regen, and they can make double tanking. (I don't speak about the racial bonus which is very good). I agree shield must have a little buff. Your other proposals are very good, but (I say it again : if I've good understood it) I don't like the 3rd. For the 4. : Yeah good idea, but with more precisions : - Shield extenders : * decrease the deplayted shield recharge delay. That's just useless and destroy the shield regen... * increase the shield extenders HP (44, 66, 77) OR decrease the PG/CPU cost. - Shield recharger/energizers : * Buff the shield energizers * Decrease the shield energizers penality - Shield regulator : They are good at the moment Like a dream
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3983	Posted - 2014.12.15 21:44:00 - [34] - Quote Armor Repair Gallente Proto Assault 0 Complex Rep = 2.5 HP/s 1 Complex Rep = 11.88 HP/s 2 Complex Rep = 21.25 HP/s 3 Complex Rep = 30.63 HP/s 4 Complex Rep = 40.00 HP/s 5 Complex Rep = 49.38 HP/s Shield Recharge Caldari Proto Assault 0 Shield Energizer = 30.00 HP/s 1 Shield Energizer = 52.43 HP/s 2 Shield Energizer = 86.48 HP/s 3 Shield Energizer = 123.37 HP/s 4 Shield Energizer = 149.46 HP/s 5 Shield Energizer = 161.31 HP/s 1 Shield Recharger = 45.53 HP/s 2 Shield Recharger = 66.00 HP/s 3 Shield Recharger = 85.49 HP/s 4 Shield Recharger = 98.01 HP/s 5 Shield Recharger = 103.38 HP/s lets do a comparison taking into account natural shield recharge delay and compare it to an equal amount of module investment between shield and armor. Assume no use of Shield Regulators and a Caldari Assault recharge delay of 5 seconds. Calcs will assume 10 seconds total to illustrate a 5 second recharge delay and 5 second of recharge time post-delay for shields and 10 seconds total for constant armor recharge. Calcs assume use of Rechargers, use of shield energizers will obviously yeild larger regen values. Also note that typically shield units will use shield regulators which will also push effective rep rates higher. 1 Modules Shield\| 30.00 HP/s * 5s = 150 HP Armor\| 11.88 HP/s * 10s = 119 HP 2 Modules Shield\| 45.53 HP/s * 5s = 227 HP Armor\| 21.25 HP/s * 10s = 212 HP 3 Modules Shield\| 85.49 HP/s * 5s = 427 HP Armor\| 30.63 HP/s * 10s = 306 HP 4 Modules Shield\| 98.01 HP/s * 5s = 490 HP Armor\| 40.00 HP/s * 10s = 400 HP 5 Modules Shield\| 103.38HP/s * 5s = 517 HP Armor\| 49.38 HP/s * 10s = 494 HP This of course assumes there is 10 seconds between point of damage and the end of the recovery cycle. As the total time approaches the recharge delay point of shields, its relative ratio to armor strikes and actually goes the other way at very short durations. That is to say that at say 6 seconds, Armor will have a higher effective repair rate compared to shields, this is why is performs well in close quarters where taking damage at frequent intervals is common. Conversely as time after damage increases from 10 seconds, the ratio between the effective regen of shields and armor actually grows even larger. This is well suited for situations where the shield user is able to avoid damage for longer periods of time and thus recover far more quickly than an armor unit can. Again note that these calcs do not take into the account the use of shield regulators or the fact that armor units will also regenerate shield over time, giving them additional HP buffer. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 377	Posted - 2014.12.15 22:28:00 - [35] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Armor Repair Gallente Proto Assault 0 Complex Rep = 2.5 HP/s 1 Complex Rep = 11.88 HP/s 2 Complex Rep = 21.25 HP/s 3 Complex Rep = 30.63 HP/s 4 Complex Rep = 40.00 HP/s 5 Complex Rep = 49.38 HP/s Shield Recharge Caldari Proto Assault 0 Shield Energizer = 30.00 HP/s 1 Shield Energizer = 52.43 HP/s 2 Shield Energizer = 86.48 HP/s 3 Shield Energizer = 123.37 HP/s 4 Shield Energizer = 149.46 HP/s 5 Shield Energizer = 161.31 HP/s 1 Shield Recharger = 45.53 HP/s 2 Shield Recharger = 66.00 HP/s 3 Shield Recharger = 85.49 HP/s 4 Shield Recharger = 98.01 HP/s 5 Shield Recharger = 103.38 HP/s lets do a comparison taking into account natural shield recharge delay and compare it to an equal amount of module investment between shield and armor. Assume no use of Shield Regulators and a Caldari Assault recharge delay of 5 seconds. Calcs will assume 10 seconds total to illustrate a 5 second recharge delay and 5 second of recharge time post-delay for shields and 10 seconds total for constant armor recharge. Calcs assume use of Rechargers, use of shield energizers will obviously yeild larger regen values. Also note that typically shield units will use shield regulators which will also push effective rep rates higher. 0 Modules Shield\| 30.00 HP/s * 5s = 150 HP Armor\| 2.50 HP/s * 10s = 25HP 1 Modules Shield\| 45.53 HP/s * 5s = 228 HP Armor\| 11.88 HP/s * 10s = 119 HP 2 Modules Shield\| 66.00 HP/s * 5s = 330 HP Armor\| 21.25 HP/s * 10s = 212 HP 3 Modules Shield\| 85.49 HP/s * 5s = 427 HP Armor\| 30.63 HP/s * 10s = 306 HP 4 Modules Shield\| 98.01 HP/s * 5s = 490 HP Armor\| 40.00 HP/s * 10s = 400 HP 5 Modules Shield\| 103.38HP/s * 5s = 517 HP Armor\| 49.38 HP/s * 10s = 494 HP This of course assumes there is 10 seconds between point of damage and the end of the recovery cycle. As the total time approaches the recharge delay point of shields, its relative ratio to armor shrinks and actually goes the other way at very short durations. That is to say that at say 6 seconds, Armor will have a higher effective repair rate compared to shields, this is why is performs well in close quarters where taking damage at frequent intervals is common. Conversely as time after damage increases from 10 seconds, the ratio between the effective regen of shields and armor actually grows even larger. This is well suited for situations where the shield user is able to avoid damage for longer periods of time and thus recover far more quickly than an armor unit can. Again note that these calcs do not take into the account the use of shield regulators or the fact that armor units will also regenerate shield over time, giving them additional HP buffer. Thnx for the math Pokey! Gassault Calogi - Ranked #763 on the forums `- Open Beta Vet - 32mil sp - - GFC, GJR Approved -`
Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 187	Posted - 2014.12.16 08:41:00 - [36] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Armor Repair Gallente Proto Assault 0 Complex Rep = 2.5 HP/s 1 Complex Rep = 11.88 HP/s 2 Complex Rep = 21.25 HP/s 3 Complex Rep = 30.63 HP/s 4 Complex Rep = 40.00 HP/s 5 Complex Rep = 49.38 HP/s Shield Recharge Caldari Proto Assault 0 Shield Energizer = 30.00 HP/s 1 Shield Energizer = 52.43 HP/s 2 Shield Energizer = 86.48 HP/s 3 Shield Energizer = 123.37 HP/s 4 Shield Energizer = 149.46 HP/s 5 Shield Energizer = 161.31 HP/s 1 Shield Recharger = 45.53 HP/s 2 Shield Recharger = 66.00 HP/s 3 Shield Recharger = 85.49 HP/s 4 Shield Recharger = 98.01 HP/s 5 Shield Recharger = 103.38 HP/s lets do a comparison taking into account natural shield recharge delay and compare it to an equal amount of module investment between shield and armor. Assume no use of Shield Regulators and a Caldari Assault recharge delay of 5 seconds. Calcs will assume 10 seconds total to illustrate a 5 second recharge delay and 5 second of recharge time post-delay for shields and 10 seconds total for constant armor recharge. Calcs assume use of Rechargers, use of shield energizers will obviously yeild larger regen values. Also note that typically shield units will use shield regulators which will also push effective rep rates higher. 0 Modules Shield\| 30.00 HP/s * 5s = 150 HP Armor\| 2.50 HP/s * 10s = 25HP 1 Modules Shield\| 45.53 HP/s * 5s = 228 HP Armor\| 11.88 HP/s * 10s = 119 HP 2 Modules Shield\| 66.00 HP/s * 5s = 330 HP Armor\| 21.25 HP/s * 10s = 212 HP 3 Modules Shield\| 85.49 HP/s * 5s = 427 HP Armor\| 30.63 HP/s * 10s = 306 HP 4 Modules Shield\| 98.01 HP/s * 5s = 490 HP Armor\| 40.00 HP/s * 10s = 400 HP 5 Modules Shield\| 103.38HP/s * 5s = 517 HP Armor\| 49.38 HP/s * 10s = 494 HP This of course assumes there is 10 seconds between point of damage and the end of the recovery cycle. As the total time approaches the recharge delay point of shields, its relative ratio to armor shrinks and actually goes the other way at very short durations. That is to say that at say 6 seconds, Armor will have a higher effective repair rate compared to shields, this is why is performs well in close quarters where taking damage at frequent intervals is common. Conversely as time after damage increases from 10 seconds, the ratio between the effective regen of shields and armor actually grows even larger. This is well suited for situations where the shield user is able to avoid damage for longer periods of time and thus recover far more quickly than an armor unit can. Again note that these calcs do not take into the account the use of shield regulators or the fact that armor units will also regenerate shield over time, giving them additional HP buffer. Great comparaison But which Caldassault put 3 shield rechargers ? Of course we see caldari hava a better regen, of course. But we must not forget the other problems... Example : - A gallente with 3 complex armor repair can put 2 enhanced armor plate, and so have much more armor than Caldari have shield (2130 compared to 272.6) - When a caldassault is recharging after a battle, and a redberrie shot on you at 70m with an assault rifle, you get less than 2hp damage, but the recharge is stopped, and you have to wait 5 sec (again) - Flux grenades destroy all the shield. And with the f****** penality on the shield extenders, you have in the caca - There isn't any shield repair tool (yet) so a shield tanker against an armor tanker + logi (repair) For me, shield has advantages and inconvenients... For me the battle between them is balanced (or just increase a bit the HP on a shield extender ? ) Whatever, the discussion is great Like a dream


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