DUST Search - The Commando: what do we want it to do, and how do we get it to do i...

Pokey Dravon wrote:

First of all props on actually hammering out a post on a cell phone and having it look quite good. Hell I do a lot of posting via a PC and I can't seem to rid it of typos haha

Secondly Commandos are also near and dear to my heart, so I share your concern. Now I do agree that they are difficult to keep alive, with slower speeds and a larger hitbox and **** poor fitting options. I think the issue I see with your proposal is that it doesn't seem to fix this problem, aside from an increase in speed which....with a suit that big, doesn't help a ton in survivability. I understand the concern that you don't want them to be uber Assaults, but the fact of the matter is that right now a Proto Commando has 4 slots....which is the same as a Standard Assault. At Proto level the Assault has 8 slots, twice as many as the Commando....this is problematic.

I mean yes the Commando has higher base HP, but I feel that's also balanced out by its innately lower speed and larger hitbox. So the question I raise is....is an increase to slots, really all that bad? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to raise it to Assault levels because yes, that would create and uber-Assault which isn't good. But what about simply matching the Commando Layout to the Sentinel Layout, which would be a net increase of 1 slot. It's a subtle yet useful buff to the Commando without going overboard, and provides of unification within the frame itself in terms of slot layout.

As for Grenades, what I assume you're saying with +2 Grenades is 2 grenade slots? Or do you mean a higher grenade carry capacity? The first option is simply not possible, Devs have already said no to this. As for Carry Capacity....perhaps, though this seems more fitting for Assaults as they already have a fitting bonus to grenades. But regardless I could see this as an option.

As for the Sidearm.... I dunno if I would even care. Sidearms are basically mini versions of Light Weapons, and since the Commando has 2 Light weapons, I'm not sure if I feel a sidearm would really add much to the suit. I mean I like to run Gallmmando, so I use a Plasma Cannon for AV/AP and then an Assault Rifle for AP. I guess I could find marginal use for a sidearm if I ever REALLY needed to kill someone and both my weapons needed reloading, but that typically doesn't happen. So....I don't think the sidearm would really do much for the Commando in general.

Reload Speed is awesome. If they ever take that from me I will flip several of my *****. +1

Magazine Size/Ammo Capacity.....the issue with this really comes down to Ammarr Weapons, or really anything that is highly ammo efficient. Since Amarr weapons are limited by heat buildup, magazine size is really irrelevant in most situations. In addition I kind of dislike how it steps on the toes of the Minmatar Assault, similarlyl how I dislike how the Caldari Assault's reload bonus steps on the toes of the Commando.

Personally I feel that the Commando should have never existed, and the Assaults should have simply had 2 Light Weapons. But the Commando is here to stay, so I've just accepted the fact that they are the Assault's bigger brother. Same role, executed a little differently. I think people try too hard to find a unique role for the Commando when in reality I think it should embrace it's Assault heritage and put a unique twist on it. To be fair I think you certainly touched on that with your proposal on certain parts, but it could use some more refining in my opinion. Nevertheless it's good stuff!

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Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 585	Posted - 2014.12.12 14:44:00 - [1] - Quote First off, an apology; I'm doing this on my phone and the input lag is slower than an ambush played with Dust Brazil, so errors abound. Now, as my signature suggests, I am very much a commando enthusiast, right from there first iteration. To say that they have come along way in terms of fun and viability since then would be something of an understatement, but to day that they're still a poorly designed suit that is difficult to keep alive on the battlefield is also true. Simply put it pays far too much in terms of raw suit stats and a lot count for the privelage of being able to equip two light weapons. The origonal fear that with too many slots it would manifest as an ++ber assault class were clearly way off the mark, and kts lack of a clearly defined role has made it tricky to fix. So, what to do? What niche do we fill? I have a proposal obviously, but before I put it out there I need to get two ideas across to you all about how I think all suits work on a sort of meta level; the idea or of fitting depth and fitting breadth. A suit that can be fitted to excel in ore two specific roles on the battlefield can be said to have a depth of fitting within those roles; they are specialists that can just do it better for less but as a consequence lack overall tactical flexibility. Heavies and logis are prime examples of such suits. Breadth of fittin is the opposite of this, whereby the suit can fit to respond to any number of differen situations on the fly, bit are therefore generalists that cannot excel in aNy role in comparison to other more focused suits. Currently, we have no suit that embodies this completely. Assaults get close to it by sheer number of module slots that they have access to at higher tiers, but are let down by limited grenades and only one light weapon. Commandoes obviously have the latter but suffer in every other possible regard, making them very cautious and niche suits indeed. What they need is a better breadth of options to play with in the fitting screen. They shouldn't have extra module slots because that just turns them into ponderous assaults. What they should have instead are grenades, sidearms and the skills to allow them to to just keep firing, always, all the time. So: Kelp the slot count the same. Base speed increase +2 grenade slot +1 sidearm slot Role bonus: 5% increase to reload speed for light and sidearms Suit bonus: 5% increase to spare ammo capacity and magazine size for racial weapons. That is a lot of guns. All of them, on fact. But it's still got he massive hitbox, the Above average hp, the lack of mobility. It's got the tools to deal with almost any situation but not the modules to enhance there performance, giving them the breadth but not the depth of fitting. Is this fair? Is this fun? Is this a true commando? Your thoughts, please. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3964	Posted - 2014.12.12 16:17:00 - [2] - Quote First of all props on actually hammering out a post on a cell phone and having it look quite good. Hell I do a lot of posting via a PC and I can't seem to rid it of typos haha Secondly Commandos are also near and dear to my heart, so I share your concern. Now I do agree that they are difficult to keep alive, with slower speeds and a larger hitbox and ** poor fitting options. I think the issue I see with your proposal is that it doesn't seem to fix this problem, aside from an increase in speed which....with a suit that big, doesn't help a ton in survivability. I understand the concern that you don't want them to be uber Assaults, but the fact of the matter is that right now a Proto Commando has 4 slots....which is the same as a Standard Assault. At Proto level the Assault has 8 slots, twice as many as the Commando....this is problematic. I mean yes the Commando has higher base HP, but I feel that's also balanced out by its innately lower speed and larger hitbox. So the question I raise is....is an increase to slots, really all that bad? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to raise it to Assault levels because yes, that would create and uber-Assault which isn't good. But what about simply matching the Commando Layout to the Sentinel Layout, which would be a net increase of 1 slot. It's a subtle yet useful buff to the Commando without going overboard, and provides of unification within the frame itself in terms of slot layout. As for Grenades, what I assume you're saying with +2 Grenades is 2 grenade slots? Or do you mean a higher grenade carry capacity? The first option is simply not possible, Devs have already said no to this. As for Carry Capacity....perhaps, though this seems more fitting for Assaults as they already have a fitting bonus to grenades. But regardless I could see this as an option. As for the Sidearm.... I dunno if I would even care. Sidearms are basically mini versions of Light Weapons, and since the Commando has 2 Light weapons, I'm not sure if I feel a sidearm would really add much to the suit. I mean I like to run Gallmmando, so I use a Plasma Cannon for AV/AP and then an Assault Rifle for AP. I guess I could find marginal use for a sidearm if I ever REALLY needed to kill someone and both my weapons needed reloading, but that typically doesn't happen. So....I don't think the sidearm would really do much for the Commando in general. Reload Speed is awesome. If they ever take that from me I will flip several of my *. +1 Magazine Size/Ammo Capacity.....the issue with this really comes down to Ammarr Weapons, or really anything that is highly ammo efficient. Since Amarr weapons are limited by heat buildup, magazine size is really irrelevant in most situations. In addition I kind of dislike how it steps on the toes of the Minmatar Assault, similarlyl how I dislike how the Caldari Assault's reload bonus steps on the toes of the Commando. Personally I feel that the Commando should have never existed, and the Assaults should have simply had 2 Light Weapons. But the Commando is here to stay, so I've just accepted the fact that they are the Assault's bigger brother. Same role, executed a little differently. I think people try too hard to find a unique role for the Commando when in reality I think it should embrace it's Assault heritage and put a unique twist on it. To be fair I think you certainly touched on that with your proposal on certain parts, but it could use some more refining in my opinion. Nevertheless it's good stuff! "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
JUDASisMYhomeboy xCosmic Voidx Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 188	Posted - 2014.12.12 16:46:00 - [3] - Quote I always thought a really good passive scan buff would help the commando. My biggest problem when im running commando is im so blind to everything. I feel like it fits the niche people want to put it in as well with suppression. of course that still doesn't change the fact that i have zero incentive to use the proto suit
Brotherband SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 27	Posted - 2014.12.12 16:59:00 - [4] - Quote My caldari commando does not seem to have any problems with surviving. I do not expect us to live through this fight. My only request is that you fight with honor and die with dignity.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5729	Posted - 2014.12.12 20:21:00 - [5] - Quote I fail to see why having a heavy infantry versus a regular infantry is a bad thing. I also fail to see why people think that giving two light weapons to assaults, and having two light weapons on commandos at the same time is a bad thing. I see the commando as a shocktrooper suit honestly, the door-kicker. Unfortunately the reality doesn't measure up because of various reasons. Assault = Regular infantry Commando = Shocktrooper in my mind. People keep trying to say fire support platform but I think commandos should be doing what the sentinels do in CQC NOW (without the overpowering DPS) in attack with the SENTINELS providing support fire. But that's just me. I'm ex-military and the current role set between sentinel and commando seems bass-ackward to me. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 732	Posted - 2014.12.12 20:32:00 - [6] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: First of all props on actually hammering out a post on a cell phone and having it look quite good. Hell I do a lot of posting via a PC and I can't seem to rid it of typos haha Secondly Commandos are also near and dear to my heart, so I share your concern. Now I do agree that they are difficult to keep alive, with slower speeds and a larger hitbox and ** poor fitting options. I think the issue I see with your proposal is that it doesn't seem to fix this problem, aside from an increase in speed which....with a suit that big, doesn't help a ton in survivability. I understand the concern that you don't want them to be uber Assaults, but the fact of the matter is that right now a Proto Commando has 4 slots....which is the same as a Standard Assault. At Proto level the Assault has 8 slots, twice as many as the Commando....this is problematic. I mean yes the Commando has higher base HP, but I feel that's also balanced out by its innately lower speed and larger hitbox. So the question I raise is....is an increase to slots, really all that bad? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to raise it to Assault levels because yes, that would create and uber-Assault which isn't good. But what about simply matching the Commando Layout to the Sentinel Layout, which would be a net increase of 1 slot. It's a subtle yet useful buff to the Commando without going overboard, and provides of unification within the frame itself in terms of slot layout. As for Grenades, what I assume you're saying with +2 Grenades is 2 grenade slots? Or do you mean a higher grenade carry capacity? The first option is simply not possible, Devs have already said no to this. As for Carry Capacity....perhaps, though this seems more fitting for Assaults as they already have a fitting bonus to grenades. But regardless I could see this as an option. As for the Sidearm.... I dunno if I would even care. Sidearms are basically mini versions of Light Weapons, and since the Commando has 2 Light weapons, I'm not sure if I feel a sidearm would really add much to the suit. I mean I like to run Gallmmando, so I use a Plasma Cannon for AV/AP and then an Assault Rifle for AP. I guess I could find marginal use for a sidearm if I ever REALLY needed to kill someone and both my weapons needed reloading, but that typically doesn't happen. So....I don't think the sidearm would really do much for the Commando in general. Reload Speed is awesome. If they ever take that from me I will flip several of my ***. +1 Magazine Size/Ammo Capacity.....the issue with this really comes down to Ammarr Weapons, or really anything that is highly ammo efficient. Since Amarr weapons are limited by heat buildup, magazine size is really irrelevant in most situations. In addition I kind of dislike how it steps on the toes of the Minmatar Assault, similarlyl how I dislike how the Caldari Assault's reload bonus steps on the toes of the Commando. Personally I feel that the Commando should have never existed, and the Assaults should have simply had 2 Light Weapons. But the Commando is here to stay, so I've just accepted the fact that they are the Assault's bigger brother. Same role, executed a little differently. I think people try too hard to find a unique role for the Commando when in reality I think it should embrace it's Assault heritage and put a unique twist on it. To be fair I think you certainly touched on that with your proposal on certain parts, but it could use some more refining in my opinion. Nevertheless it's good stuff! give them 3 light weapons and buff damage to 3-4% per level
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect 565	Posted - 2014.12.12 22:11:00 - [7] - Quote One problem is the commando is a big and slow heavy suit with a huge hitbox, but without the resistances and dps of a sentinel. Common sense indicates that commandos should be medium or scouts out of practicality.
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 586	Posted - 2014.12.12 22:49:00 - [8] - Quote Thanks for the feedback everyone. Again this from my phone so I'll be brief; the sentinel slot layout is an excellent idea I could get behind, and I agree that sidearms might be redundant, although I have fond memories of my Amarr proto commando rocking a flaylock, it was a small bit noticeable addition. I wanted two grenade slots, wasn't aware that this was not on the table for any suit. A shame. Passive scan buff was something I suggested in an earlier thread and I still like the idea of it; repurposing the frame into a command role that can direct squads from the back without sacrificing killing power sounds both unique and fun. Sentinels are cqc kings and until the hmg is repurposed to not do what it does now the commando will always be a second-rate shocktrooper, sadly. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3968	Posted - 2014.12.12 22:51:00 - [9] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: give them 3 light weapons and buff damage to 3-4% per level @_@ What would the Amarr Commando even put in the 3rd slot? A second Scrambler Rifle? I'm sorry but I don't think "MOAR WEAPONS" is really going to make the Commando better. And +20% damage would just be insane. 10% is reasonable, it's like a built in Proto Damage Mod + some. 15% is really pushing it since that's 2 Proto Damage Mods built in. Thoughts on something like this? Particularly looking at Assault and Commando together, and solidifying their role of "Kill all the Things" over other roles. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1byZsQwCpZc6Dvn-aIteOYlYasg5PY3eXyT8G9snfmpE/edit?usp=sharing "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1755	Posted - 2014.12.12 23:02:00 - [10] - Quote I feel that in their current iteration commandos are very good but not quite there - they're the suit you want because it can carry around a swarm or a mass driver without sacrificing a service rifle. Commandos can engage a wide variety of targets and are useful in a huge range of situations due to their specialist weaponry, however due to their low slot totals, lack of a grenade and lack of a sidearm they won't be supplanting assaults at all. Commandos really need a few extra slots and some serious tweaking to their base stats (stamina, delays & recharge & most importantly ewar). Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 640	Posted - 2014.12.13 00:40:00 - [11] - Quote Add a sidearm and nades? hell yes! I'd even be okay without the sidearm and instead the nades AND a second equipment. And the BW to support it. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 742	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:36:00 - [12] - Quote Totally brainstorming with this so don't crucify me please. What if we swapped out one light weapon for the ability to use a heavy weapon? It is considered a heavy suit after all, so why not allow it the ability to use heavy weapons? This would give the Commando access to the entire gamut of weapons ( since you can put light in a heavy and can put a sidearm in a light). In other words, this would give the commando ultimate flexibility in fittings. It still won't have the HP of the Sentinel but it will be a little quicker, and will have more HP than an Assault or Scout but will be larger and slower. Using an HMG to engage scouts/assaults etc. would be a viable option. A commando who got the drop on a Sentinel may even be able to engage sentinels with an HMG. However, this would also allow the ability to match a Forge gun for AV with the service rifle of choice for infantry engagements. If this was the ONLY change made, do you all believe it would it be considered OP (since I think there is a consensus right now it is not to the level it should be), or would it simply give it the highest versatility while not being the master of any one thing? The one change that I think needs to be made if this happens is an increase in PG/CPU. It is brutal trying to build a decent fit even on an Advanced Commando. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 742	Posted - 2014.12.13 01:39:00 - [13] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Add a sidearm and nades? hell yes! I'd even be okay without the sidearm and instead the nades AND a second equipment. And the BW to support it. Nades yes. Even if we only got 1. As for the sidearm, I don't really see the purpose. A sidearm is basically a scaled down light weapon. (unless you want to rock a RR, CR, and a Flaylock to have long range, close range, and a splash weapon). As for equip, I am reluctant just because I don't like every suit on the field trying to play Logi. If this was considered, we would have to DRAMATICALLY increase CPU / PG because you can't build a decent fit now on a Commando suit. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 122	Posted - 2014.12.13 12:50:00 - [14] - Quote =ƒÿÉ. Commandos have always had problems that need to be addressed. commandos are currently not to good or to bad because like you said, they are hard to keep alive. Now I agree that 1 slot should be added to all levels. What I feel could be useful-for various reasons- is an increase to its regen. It's a special suit. I feel this will keep more commandos on the field. It already has an ok amount of hp, the problem is the slot layout and what you fit on it. This is why j think it should have a higher base regen. I believe its one right now. I feel 3 per sec plus a reper mod would be enough to get more use of them. 48th Special Operations Force. "As a team or alone, I dominate the battlefield."
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 589	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:34:00 - [15] - Quote I believe that in the current meta commandos already have the highest passive regen out of all suit classes, with galmando having a base rep of about 5 per sec? The old old Amarr commando had a efficacy bonus to any modules that added hp/regen, which was a nice concept but poorly implemented (it maxed at +10%); a 5% per level to defensive module efficacy in place of the current damage bonus would make regen and plates really potent if you chose to fit them. Worth considering. So, to summarise what we have as a loose sort of consensus this far: Keep the reload speed bonus. Increase slot layout to match that of sentinel class. Addition of grenade slot, with possible increase to capacity compared to that of other suits. A strengthening of the suits survivability through better regen and faster movement speed. A strengthening of the suits native EWAR; probably through a lower precision strength so that they're not blind to other suits. Possible addition of a sidearm, but not a critical request. A more role-defining second suit bonus than the current damage bonus. Whilst nice to have, it's not particularly interesting. Blue tags, I think it's over to you now :) Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 589	Posted - 2014.12.14 15:39:00 - [16] - Quote Bump. I like my suit. Make it better somebody please ;) Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Mad Greasemonkey The Scope Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2014.12.15 12:55:00 - [17] - Quote I see two problems with my commando fits. First if I put anything but ammo in the EQ slot, I run out of it pretty fast. Since my second weapon is usually Situational (MD or SW). So my proposal would be to give the Commando a buff to his ammo pool, (+10-20% per level). The second is survivability, so I'd propose one more slot at all levels, so we can tank slightly more, or have some ewar at hand. I don't like the grenade and sidearm proposals, since that would go too much into assault territory. Simply put, give us more ammo, that we can use the EQ for something else than a hive, and give us one more slot to increase survivability.


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