DUST Search - Who the hell designed this shield tank

True Adamance wrote:

Vesta Opalus wrote:

Its not even about damage profiles. HAVs are overpowered and AV cannot compete without a ton of AV alpha striking the tank to death before it can move around a corner or duck behind a hill.

Meanwhile any infantry including AV can be absolutely slaughtered by a tanker with any brains at all. The "anti vehicle" rail turret absolutely wrecks infantry with a little target practice, and the HP totals make it so stupidly difficult to kill vehicles that the pilot has to be braindead to die. There is no balance to V vs. AV as long as a forge gunner has to hit a tank 4 times to kill even the worst fit tank, and even the worst rail turret around can kill a forge gunner in 2 hits.

The reality of the situation is that the Madruger sucks right now (sucks compared to the Gunnlogi, not compared to AV) because its natural turret (blaster) was overnerfed and because armor hardeners got nerfed into the ground. Its still damn near invincible to AV if fitted well, even if it is food for any rail gunnlogi with a halfway decent fit.

AV sucks against vehicles, it sucks against infantry. The funniest part is that AV actually has a better chance of killing infantry than it does of killing vehicles, **** is completely backwards.
Vehicles are completely dominant over infantry and can still beat the heck out of their in game counter (AV).

This is not balanced.

Until tankers start calling for vehicles that can actually be killed by AV as easily as vehicles can kill infantry, they will get zero respect from me. Yes if this happens vehicles should cost alot less. Yes it will be so sad that it doesnt take 3+ AV to take down a good tank. But it will be balanced.

Meanwhile I will continue to log on to my vehicle alt every few days to play a few games in my gunnlogi with my friends in my small turrets. Its boring to do it every day but it really is fun turning on god mode every now and then and run around one shotting everyone with the proto rail turret while any vehicle that comes against us gets absolutely wrecked by all our damage output and we rack up massive amounts of war points from all the absurd vehicle assists/kill assists/squad commendations system.

2 Enhanced extenders, 1 shield hardener (I think its enhanced), 2 rail turret ammo extensions, 2 adv. railgun turrets, 1 proto railgun turret, Im sure someone could make a better fit, but why bother when it demolishes everything that tries to fight it?

We've even beaten double gunnlogis coming at us in a game until they ragequit a few minutes in (I think they werent very good pilots though).

Tanks are a bad joke. The whole V vs. AV dynamic needs to be entirely overhauled with a new concept of how disposable vehicles are and how vehicles should be used.

As I've said before you are asking for something that cannot or will not happen until Rattati actually sits down and engages pilots and AV.... he said he might be doing this but currently there is no sign of this starting.

The trick as I see it is to allow HAV the flexibility and given the a role on the battlefield which allows then to engage other tanks, vehicles, and objectives as their primary focus and with a secondary focus on infantry units if threatened. We also need to know what kinds of skill tree and tiered variations/specialisations of Tank hulls we can expect before we can get to balancing properly.

Before we start talking EHP nerfs I'd rather approach HAV rebalancing by standardising mobility values, adjusting and slowing acceleration, adjusting their regenerative capacities (mainly so that damage applied stays applied for longer and so that is) heck even proper barrel sway would be nice.

In previous builds AV dealt less damage per shot and HAV had more EHP....yet AV dominated the field I want to find our what it was about the old pre 1.6 model and return to a V vs AV climate like that.


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Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 226	Posted - 2014.12.08 16:14:00 - [1] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I have no idea what the dude was running, but I literally unloaded every single swarm I had + swarms in my nanohive and that shield tank ended up with half shield HP. It literally did not care. How the fuck. Anyone has any idea what he was running that he just ate my proto swarms for breakfast? Congratulations, you've run into one of the super douche tank fits. The ones that take half a minute of sustained fire from AV to take down. But remember AV is totally overpowered and tankers are a beleaguered, persecuted minority thats totally not constantly agitating to maintain unfair balance conditions so they can farm kills with impunity. My suggestion is you create a vehicle alt if you havent got one already so you can fully explore just how brain dead easy it is to play as a tank in this game.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 229	Posted - 2014.12.08 19:30:00 - [2] - Quote Its not even about damage profiles. HAVs are overpowered and AV cannot compete without a ton of AV alpha striking the tank to death before it can move around a corner or duck behind a hill. Meanwhile any infantry including AV can be absolutely slaughtered by a tanker with any brains at all. The "anti vehicle" rail turret absolutely wrecks infantry with a little target practice, and the HP totals make it so stupidly difficult to kill vehicles that the pilot has to be braindead to die. There is no balance to V vs. AV as long as a forge gunner has to hit a tank 4 times to kill even the worst fit tank, and even the worst rail turret around can kill a forge gunner in 2 hits. The reality of the situation is that the Madruger sucks right now (sucks compared to the Gunnlogi, not compared to AV) because its natural turret (blaster) was overnerfed and because armor hardeners got nerfed into the ground. Its still damn near invincible to AV if fitted well, even if it is food for any rail gunnlogi with a halfway decent fit. AV sucks against vehicles, it sucks against infantry. The funniest part is that AV actually has a better chance of killing infantry than it does of killing vehicles, **** is completely backwards. Vehicles are completely dominant over infantry and can still beat the heck out of their in game counter (AV). This is not balanced. Until tankers start calling for vehicles that can actually be killed by AV as easily as vehicles can kill infantry, they will get zero respect from me. Yes if this happens vehicles should cost alot less. Yes it will be so sad that it doesnt take 3+ AV to take down a good tank. But it will be balanced. Meanwhile I will continue to log on to my vehicle alt every few days to play a few games in my gunnlogi with my friends in my small turrets. Its boring to do it every day but it really is fun turning on god mode every now and then and run around one shotting everyone with the proto rail turret while any vehicle that comes against us gets absolutely wrecked by all our damage output and we rack up massive amounts of war points from all the absurd vehicle assists/kill assists/squad commendations system. 2 Enhanced extenders, 1 shield hardener (I think its enhanced), 2 rail turret ammo extensions, 2 adv. railgun turrets, 1 proto railgun turret, Im sure someone could make a better fit, but why bother when it demolishes everything that tries to fight it? We've even beaten double gunnlogis coming at us in a game until they ragequit a few minutes in (I think they werent very good pilots though). Tanks are a bad joke. The whole V vs. AV dynamic needs to be entirely overhauled with a new concept of how disposable vehicles are and how vehicles should be used.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 229	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:00:00 - [3] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Until tankers start calling for vehicles that can actually be killed by AV as easily as vehicles can kill infantry, they will get zero respect from me. You know where you can shove your "respect." Three XT-1 missiles to kill a heavy/ three forge rounds to kill a dropship. 3 remotes and a flux to kill any tank. If only infantry had acess to giant installation with 12 hitpoints with free large turrets and unlimited ammo... really dude, get good. Since when are the current large missile turrets anti infantry? You are really going to complain about not being able to kill a heavy unless you hit him 3 times when you have like 9 (or whatever, I dont use large missiles much) more missiles in your clip? And yes I agree forge vs. dropship is much more balanced, but if your dropship is getting killed by 3 shots of anything but a breach forge gun, you need to refit. And are you seriously telling me to get good while you're implying that you regularly get killed by remotes and turret installations? Remotes: Use your ears. No one should ever be able to attach more than one remote to you. The only time a remote should ever kill you is if a jihad jeep rams them into your tank or if there is a bunch of other AV pecking at you and the remote gets the last hit. Installations? I mean wow, you get killed by immobile installations that spawn in the same spot in every match? I dont even. The only time I ever die to either of them is if I'm not paying attention at all. Unlike most tankers I am perfectly comfortable saying it was my fault, not some imbalance in the game, especially since the rest of my game experience both in and out of tanks points directly to the opposite: that tanks are incredibly imbalanced and overpowered. Hell the only time I remember being killed by non-jihad remotes in the past year is when my friend was trolling me by throwing equipment near my tank so I kept moving, until I finally started ignoring it and sure enough some scout came along and got me. Again my mistake because I stopped moving away from equipment drops.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 229	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:37:00 - [4] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Seriously you guys are going to nerf tanks again? Ffs take tanks out the game and refund the sp. I for one would hate to see tanks nerfed even in the slightest. It was a refreshing change to come up against a tank that had some real tank. People saying that AV is underpowered right now are for lack of a better term, fools. Please dont mistake our awe of a well fit tank as a call to have them nerfed. NO. So why should something in this game be virtually immune to its direct counter? The only thing that kills these super gunnlogis these days is other super gunnlogis. Thats straight up imbalanced.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 229	Posted - 2014.12.08 21:44:00 - [5] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lupus Wolf wrote: What was your suit? Also, did he have a hardener on? Galmando, damage modded. lol scrub. So you thought a single damage modded swarm launcher will do any good vs a shield tank? You either take a tripple damage modded calmando or a damage modded minmando. Both have the best damage output for swarms (caldari only cause of 3X damage mods). So you sir are officially a scrub, a hardcore scrub to be precise. Take some dignity and use a plasma cannon on your galmando cause for that you get damage bonus for. Just so everyone knows, this is bullshit. I have triple damage modded caldari commando and Ive used it against this fit of tank, it doesnt do jack. Even if it did, the idea that you have to have the absolute best optimized fit to even have a weapon capable of killing something is a really good indicator that the weapon is dramatically underpowered or what you are using it on is dramatically overpowered. In any case it doesnt actually work, which is an even better indicator. Edited to add: inb4 some jackass claims that you just have to use the MINMITAR commando, THATS the one that works, thats the ticket! Also bullshit.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 230	Posted - 2014.12.09 00:42:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Its not even about damage profiles. HAVs are overpowered and AV cannot compete without a ton of AV alpha striking the tank to death before it can move around a corner or duck behind a hill. Meanwhile any infantry including AV can be absolutely slaughtered by a tanker with any brains at all. The "anti vehicle" rail turret absolutely wrecks infantry with a little target practice, and the HP totals make it so stupidly difficult to kill vehicles that the pilot has to be braindead to die. There is no balance to V vs. AV as long as a forge gunner has to hit a tank 4 times to kill even the worst fit tank, and even the worst rail turret around can kill a forge gunner in 2 hits. The reality of the situation is that the Madruger sucks right now (sucks compared to the Gunnlogi, not compared to AV) because its natural turret (blaster) was overnerfed and because armor hardeners got nerfed into the ground. Its still damn near invincible to AV if fitted well, even if it is food for any rail gunnlogi with a halfway decent fit. AV sucks against vehicles, it sucks against infantry. The funniest part is that AV actually has a better chance of killing infantry than it does of killing vehicles, **** is completely backwards. Vehicles are completely dominant over infantry and can still beat the heck out of their in game counter (AV). This is not balanced. Until tankers start calling for vehicles that can actually be killed by AV as easily as vehicles can kill infantry, they will get zero respect from me. Yes if this happens vehicles should cost alot less. Yes it will be so sad that it doesnt take 3+ AV to take down a good tank. But it will be balanced. Meanwhile I will continue to log on to my vehicle alt every few days to play a few games in my gunnlogi with my friends in my small turrets. Its boring to do it every day but it really is fun turning on god mode every now and then and run around one shotting everyone with the proto rail turret while any vehicle that comes against us gets absolutely wrecked by all our damage output and we rack up massive amounts of war points from all the absurd vehicle assists/kill assists/squad commendations system. 2 Enhanced extenders, 1 shield hardener (I think its enhanced), 2 rail turret ammo extensions, 2 adv. railgun turrets, 1 proto railgun turret, Im sure someone could make a better fit, but why bother when it demolishes everything that tries to fight it? We've even beaten double gunnlogis coming at us in a game until they ragequit a few minutes in (I think they werent very good pilots though). Tanks are a bad joke. The whole V vs. AV dynamic needs to be entirely overhauled with a new concept of how disposable vehicles are and how vehicles should be used. As I've said before you are asking for something that cannot or will not happen until Rattati actually sits down and engages pilots and AV.... he said he might be doing this but currently there is no sign of this starting. The trick as I see it is to allow HAV the flexibility and given the a role on the battlefield which allows then to engage other tanks, vehicles, and objectives as their primary focus and with a secondary focus on infantry units if threatened. We also need to know what kinds of skill tree and tiered variations/specialisations of Tank hulls we can expect before we can get to balancing properly. Before we start talking EHP nerfs I'd rather approach HAV rebalancing by standardising mobility values, adjusting and slowing acceleration, adjusting their regenerative capacities (mainly so that damage applied stays applied for longer and so that is) heck even proper barrel sway would be nice. In previous builds AV dealt less damage per shot and HAV had more EHP....yet AV dominated the field I want to find our what it was about the old pre 1.6 model and return to a V vs AV climate like that. Unfortunately I dont think we will have a real balance solution until we give up on the idea that tanks should cost more and should dominate everything. Expanding the frames/modules/functionality would be great but the core problem in vehicles vs. AV is that AV doesnt work and vehicles cant play in a fun way without prohibitive expenses. So lets solve both problems by making tanks cheaper and making AV work. I have alot of faith that the current team making decisions at CCP really wants to get Dust into a more fun state though, so Im not really too grumpy about any of this. Hopefully they will get vehicles right next iteration.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 230	Posted - 2014.12.09 00:44:00 - [7] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: CommanderBolt wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Seriously you guys are going to nerf tanks again? Ffs take tanks out the game and refund the sp. I for one would hate to see tanks nerfed even in the slightest. It was a refreshing change to come up against a tank that had some real tank. People saying that AV is underpowered right now are for lack of a better term, fools. Please dont mistake our awe of a well fit tank as a call to have them nerfed. NO. So why should something in this game be virtually immune to its direct counter? The only thing that kills these super gunnlogis these days is other super gunnlogis. Thats straight up imbalanced. Try a forge mate. Or maybe don't try to solo it from a rooftop? If you were in a lav it wouldn't have time to get outta range now would it? I have a forge, and they are not as **** against this kind of fit, but not viable either. If I have to reload 2 times to kill the damn thing, it has enough time to run off any time. In addition if it shoots me ONE TIME Im done. Not balanced. And lol at the LAV. I have to have a vehicle to counter a vehicle, I might as well just run a tank. If a forge gunner rolled up to me in an LAV I would just pop it in two shots and roll away if I felt threatened at all after that.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 233	Posted - 2014.12.09 15:28:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: So, you are supposed to need a squad with snipers, hackers, AV, and a tank to kill a tank, is that the design goal for vehicles? Seems pretty fail to me. Thats strawmanning and a pretty poor attempt at it. All Tesfa suggest were that these were clever ways to put a tank out of position and off his/her guard not that these things were necessary, although they do all help. Considering that turrets are rather tough to knock out these days hacking one at the enemy redline is a brilliant way to ensure that last shot connects. Honestly if you struggle to take out an Armour tank these days you DO just suck at AVing..... Shields are a whole other can of beans that I hope Rattati addresses. Lord knows I've badgered him enough to fix them. Pretty sure hes responding to IWS