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BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo
3421
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Posted - 2014.12.07 14:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Duvolle: Damage:- 33.99 ROF:- 800 DPS:- 453.2 Optimal range:- 40M Effective range (30% dps):- 70M Clip/ammo:- 60/300 Damage per clip:- 2039.4
Creodon: Damage:- 63.935 ROF:- 428.57 DPS:- 456.67 Optimal range:- 40M Effective range (30% dps):- 70M Clip/ammo:- 36/300 Damage per clip:- 2301
As you can see from these stats the only numbers that are different from the basic AR is the damage per clip which is 300 hp over, the only logical nerf to the breach would be a clip reduction.
I will explain why any other nerf is unecesary and would break the weapon, the two most suggested nerfs being dps and range. Before we go on, would you nerf the dps or the range on the Duvolle? Why not? Because the weapon is unused and kinda bad unless in the hands of a skilled player.
So then why the Creodon? Here is a thought experiment let's say we fiddled with the stats of the Creodon (damage and rof) holding dps constant, and we increased rof to 800. Well damage would actually be equal to the ARs, which I just previously stated is not in need of a nerf. By this the breach is not in need of a dps nerf, because dps is equal to that of a weapon who operates exactly the same, and that weapon is nowhere near OP.
That leaves us with range, 40M optimal and 70M effective, well that's a 30M difference and at it's peak dps drops down to a whopping 30%, that means ever meters we have a 2.3% dps reduction, so at the next range where a weapon operates being the CR at 50M, the AR has lost 23% dps, so there is no way the AR nor the Breach can outdps or outperform any weapon outside of 40M, so the problem is definitely not range.
So what is the problem? clip? 300 extra damage is not going to make the weapon seem so OP, so what is it? Well the problem is actually rof and damage but not the combination of both, meaning it is no dps. The problem is the weapons low rof and high damage makes it accurate and deadly, but that's only because it is just easy to use, and it forgives missing a lot. The way the game works, most weapons actually miss a lot, weapons with low rof like the post-nerf Tac, the rail and now the breach excel in this environment, because they do not miss. The only way to fix the weapon is to actually increase rof, and reduce damage keeping dps constant, as I have stated above dps is not the problem nor is it range, and blindly nerfing the weapon would just break it, specially when the nerds suggested ARE NOT the problem.
Edit: forgot to mention it also needs a tiny bit more kick, the AR had kick which is noticeable at the end of it's clip due to it's high rof and such, the breach won't ever kick due to low rof and low clip.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo
3421
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Posted - 2014.12.07 15:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:you forgot to mention giving the damn thing ANY kick would be a sufficiant nerf.
damn things steady as a rock.
Accuracy and kick are the same on the AR and breach although I do agree that the breach need a a tiny more kick because it's low rof actually negates the kick already built in. For example the AR has kick but it's at the end of the clip, the breach is to slow and has a smaller clip So it will never kick.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo
3421
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Posted - 2014.12.07 15:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:Stats of bolt pistol were in line, math is not the only factor to take in account when you balance a weapon.
Breach AR ROF is almost perfect to land hits on strafing targets (despite less ROF it seem to hit more frequently), it's full auto, have a decent amount of bullet per clip but most of all it's super effective in hip fire.
I don't want to say that BAR is extremely OP, but certainly is rather easy to use for the damage it can deal, generally if a weapon performance can be very good, it's not super easy to use (eg SCR pistol headshot bonus).
The weapon is easy to use because the majority of combat in dust lies on who can miss the most, the breach being an extremely accurate weapon on moving targets allows it to be good in this meta. Imo if the strafing nerf lands the AR will become a lot better, along with other high rof weapons.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3423
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Posted - 2014.12.07 20:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Greiv Rabbah wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Duvolle: Damage:- 33.99 ROF:- 800 DPS:- 453.2 Optimal range:- 40M Effective range (30% dps):- 70M Clip/ammo:- 60/300 Damage per clip:- 2039.4
Creodon: Damage:- 63.935 ROF:- 428.57 DPS:- 456.67 Optimal range:- 40M Effective range (30% dps):- 70M Clip/ammo:- 36/300 Damage per clip:- 2301
As you can see from these stats the only numbers that are different from the basic AR is the damage per clip which is 300 hp over, the only logical nerf to the breach would be a clip reduction.
I will explain why any other nerf is unecesary and would break the weapon, the two most suggested nerfs being dps and range. Before we go on, would you nerf the dps or the range on the Duvolle? Why not? Because the weapon is unused and kinda bad unless in the hands of a skilled player.
So then why the Creodon? Here is a thought experiment let's say we fiddled with the stats of the Creodon (damage and rof) holding dps constant, and we increased rof to 800. Well damage would actually be equal to the ARs, which I just previously stated is not in need of a nerf. By this the breach is not in need of a dps nerf, because dps is equal to that of a weapon who operates exactly the same, and that weapon is nowhere near OP.
That leaves us with range, 40M optimal and 70M effective, well that's a 30M difference and at it's peak dps drops down to a whopping 30%, that means ever meters we have a 2.3% dps reduction, so at the next range where a weapon operates being the CR at 50M, the AR has lost 23% dps, so there is no way the AR nor the Breach can outdps or outperform any weapon outside of 40M, so the problem is definitely not range.
So what is the problem? clip? 300 extra damage is not going to make the weapon seem so OP, so what is it? Well the problem is actually rof and damage but not the combination of both, meaning it is no dps. The problem is the weapons low rof and high damage makes it accurate and deadly, but that's only because it is just easy to use, and it forgives missing a lot. The way the game works, most weapons actually miss a lot, weapons with low rof like the post-nerf Tac, the rail and now the breach excel in this environment, because they do not miss. The only way to fix the weapon is to actually increase rof, and reduce damage keeping dps constant, as I have stated above dps is not the problem nor is it range, and blindly nerfing the weapon would just break it, specially when the nerds suggested ARE NOT the problem.
Edit: forgot to mention it also needs a tiny bit more kick, the AR had kick which is noticeable at the end of it's clip due to it's high rof and such, the breach won't ever kick due to low rof and low clip. Hi there. I really really like this almost entirely. Your logic was great, your argument against the breach atbeing overpowered was well formulated, but i disagree with your conclusion. 300 extra damage per clip I think is a perfectly reasonable ramp up from basic to breach, and I don't think increasing ROF or decreasing damage per shot is the way to go here bc that's taking away the "breach" from the breach assault rifle. I would argue instead that the accuracy needs tweaking. The gun needs kick. Not just a little, we're talking about a gun that punches harder and slings fireballs farther than the duvolle so it should recoil more than the duvolle, make sense? Of course operation and gal assault bring these down and it should be a reasonably accurate weapon in the hands of an assault gk0, but even then the kick should be noticeable. That would balance the weapon i think. Your dps calculations are high for these rifles bc they dont account for missed shots, which sets the breach rifles "real" dps much higher while your "potential" dps doesnt show a problem statistically. Would you disagree with that?
I do agree with you, on my initial draft for this I added that the breach needs more kick but I forgot to add it but yes it needs more kick. The reason I say it needs more rof, is not to make it AR 2.0 but to make it slightly less accurate, a rof increase would be a maximum of 600. The intent is to show that the breach does not need a straight nerf to dps nor range. One thing I mentioned in a post within this thread is that once starting nerf drops the AR along with other high rof weapons will gain more kills as the need for accuracy while moving or on moving targets will decrease. Although to be fair, kick and accuracy is a factor that the majority of weapons aside from caldari rail weapons, can ignore. In a perfect environment all weapons would have a degree of kick and inacuracy that sadly is missing.
As got damage per clip, stats wise that is the only variable that deviates by a high amount, although there are other weapons with a much higher damage per clip than 2.3k.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3423
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Posted - 2014.12.07 21:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
sir RAVEN WING wrote:What I hear "Please don't nerf my gun!" I'd be fine with a BrAR being removed or Breach versions of the other guns being added.
Also if they buffed CRs or RRs (Or in RR's case, nerf the charge just a bit more.) I'd also be fine with it, but my ADV Gal sent should be able to kill and assault with a boundless faster than he can with a basic BrAR, even more so when he's playing in a militia suit.
Actually I don't use the breach, I use the assault rail rifle mainly. But being a gallente loyalist I would hate to see the only effective gallente weapon be unreasonably nerfed.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3423
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Posted - 2014.12.07 21:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
sir RAVEN WING wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:sir RAVEN WING wrote:What I hear "Please don't nerf my gun!" I'd be fine with a BrAR being removed or Breach versions of the other guns being added.
Also if they buffed CRs or RRs (Or in RR's case, nerf the charge just a bit more.) I'd also be fine with it, but my ADV Gal sent should be able to kill and assault with a boundless faster than he can with a basic BrAR, even more so when he's playing in a militia suit. Actually I don't use the breach, I use the assault rail rifle mainly. But being a gallente loyalist I would hate to see the only effective gallente weapon be unreasonably nerfed. *Points out the RR* This Caldari loyalist (former) wanted the same for the Caldari... sadly no one cared.
I like how the rail rifle is now, its not easy mode anymore but equally the increased DPS and my ability to control it makes it a very rewarding weapon for switching combat styles quickly.
I do wish all guns had increased kick and such, scaling with increasing range.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3424
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Posted - 2014.12.07 22:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jack 3enimble wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:sir RAVEN WING wrote:What I hear "Please don't nerf my gun!" I'd be fine with a BrAR being removed or Breach versions of the other guns being added.
Also if they buffed CRs or RRs (Or in RR's case, nerf the charge just a bit more.) I'd also be fine with it, but my ADV Gal sent should be able to kill and assault with a boundless faster than he can with a basic BrAR, even more so when he's playing in a militia suit. Actually I don't use the breach, I use the assault rail rifle mainly. But being a gallente loyalist I would hate to see the only effective gallente weapon be unreasonably nerfed. This made me lol
Hey the rail is a hell of a weapon, and Gallente (EVE side) use either rails and blasters, mostly blasters, but I can use rails while still being loyal
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3427
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Posted - 2014.12.08 00:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
xavier zor wrote:Breach has lower clip, and your math must be wrong. The breach has been buffed by 14% so the DPS would be much more different when compared to its duvolle counter-part
Lol... Its definitely not wrong. The damage was buffed by 14% from before when it was low as hell. Why don't you open up the market place and look at the Duvolle and breach, take damage and rof and multiply those numbers, then divide by 60. That's dps. To get damage per clip, take the damage per shot and multiply by clip.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3427
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Posted - 2014.12.08 00:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:It's range might be a bit much..
It's only 40M, that's almost nothing compared to the range of other weapons, specially the hmg which competes at that range.
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3429
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Posted - 2014.12.08 01:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Breach assault rifle has more DPS, despite being a breach variant. Nerf the ******* gun.
It has 3 more dps, the DPS difference between the two is 0.66%
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3431
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Posted - 2014.12.08 05:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Atiim wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote: Actually I don't use the breach, I use the assault rail rifle mainly. But being a gallente loyalist I would hate to see the only effective gallente weapon be unreasonably nerfed.
Breach ARs are far from the only effective Gallente Weapon. Yeah! My Plasma Cannon wants an apology!
lol okay Gallente weapons are good within their niche, but when it comes to versatility they fail. Now if every other weapon was niche then the Gallente weapons would be very good but most weapons are extremely versatile, due to their much longer range and very small DPS sacrifices.
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3436
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Posted - 2014.12.08 13:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Colossus of Sardia wrote:i run a speed tanked minmatar heavy and the BrAR is one of the most deadly weapons against me.
if i run into a Minmatar/Caldari Assault/Scout with a BrAR i'm dead 70% of the time. they drop me insanely fast while i can't scratch their shields with my HMG (somehow they strafing affects the hit detection and i only get blueshields) while they just pray n'spray.
the BrAr drops me sometimes even faster than a heavy with a HMG. it shouldnt be nerfed to the ground but something has to change (maybe increased kick-back or a shorter optimal range, so it stays king in CQC.
Because your speed tanked, which breach type weapons excel against.
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3436
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Posted - 2014.12.08 14:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Colossus of Sardia wrote:i run a speed tanked minmatar heavy and the BrAR is one of the most deadly weapons against me.
if i run into a Minmatar/Caldari Assault/Scout with a BrAR i'm dead 70% of the time. they drop me insanely fast while i can't scratch their shields with my HMG (somehow they strafing affects the hit detection and i only get blueshields) while they just pray n'spray.
the BrAr drops me sometimes even faster than a heavy with a HMG. it shouldnt be nerfed to the ground but something has to change (maybe increased kick-back or a shorter optimal range, so it stays king in CQC. Because your speed tanked, which breach type weapons excel against. Breach smg and Breach Forge does not excel against speed tanks. You are making **** up.
Breach as in rail rifles and assault rifles... the rof of the breach SMG is slower so technically it IS better against faster targets but its still a pretty fast ROF. The breach forge doesn't really count because it isnt automatic....
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3436
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Posted - 2014.12.08 14:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Colossus of Sardia wrote:i run a speed tanked minmatar heavy and the BrAR is one of the most deadly weapons against me.
if i run into a Minmatar/Caldari Assault/Scout with a BrAR i'm dead 70% of the time. they drop me insanely fast while i can't scratch their shields with my HMG (somehow they strafing affects the hit detection and i only get blueshields) while they just pray n'spray.
the BrAr drops me sometimes even faster than a heavy with a HMG. it shouldnt be nerfed to the ground but something has to change (maybe increased kick-back or a shorter optimal range, so it stays king in CQC. Because your speed tanked, which breach type weapons excel against. Breach smg and Breach Forge does not excel against speed tanks. You are making **** up. Breach as in rail rifles and assault rifles... the rof of the breach SMG is slower so technically it IS better against faster targets but its still a pretty fast ROF. The breach forge doesn't really count because it isnt automatic.... We don't have breach variants outside of the AR right now though, and I'd rather take the assault variant for hitting speed tanks in CQC then the breach smg. To me breach should be the CQC variant, the Tactical is supposed to be the long range variant and the assault is supposed to be the suppression variant. Right now the BAR is both great for suppression and distance fighting. Assault variants should be the best at handling speed tanks due to their high rate of fire. This is generally true and is true with the smg but not with the BAR. That's because the BAR is too good at too many things. All variants are supposed to have a niche, if not then what the hell is the point of variants?
Rail rifles are naturally breach weapons..... breach weapons = low rof + high damage. The bolt pistol is a breach weapon also. Assault variants suck against speed tanks because they lose to much damage as the target moves around.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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