Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
200
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Posted - 2014.12.06 05:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:And to the inevitable Amarr-losing-sidearm-QQ posters, if I can live with all the nerfs and crap that's happened and are happening to Cal scouts and ADSs and still get by, you can handle losing your little sidearm (while getting more slots and equipment, which should be better if you actually want to play logi).
You do realize that the defining feature of the Amarr Logi has always been that it gets to tote a sidearm around, right?
And that by removing the sidearm, you kill, in no particular order, the following builds:
Swarm Logi
PLC Logi
Laser Logi
Sniper Logi
And you also pretty much force the Amarr Logi into running non-laser weapons, due to the draconian fitting requirements of lasers in general, and more particularly because the damage profile is so penalizing that it quite frankly requires a second weapon to actually be effective.
It also means that certain weapons are now significantly less viable on the Amarr Logi; Mass Drivers and Shotguns are the two that come to mind the most... though I fully admit that a Shotgun Amarr Logi is pretty bad by default given it's very slow speed and poor durability.
However, the point remains- there's a lot of weapons that are no longer viable on the Amarr Logi if you take the sidearm away. Quite frankly, if such a change went through... I would be quite angry, and would likely respec out of the Amarr Logi entirely.
As several posters have mentioned, there's quite a few people who chose to skill into the Amarr Logi purely because it had that sidearm slot.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
204
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Posted - 2014.12.07 06:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Swarms are still usable with a squad and different tactics. Lol PLC on any serious suit. Reduction of offensive capability is exactly what being a logi means. Snipers just hide in the redline (or are pretty much insta-killed regardless).
So in other words, your rebuttal is that suicidal Logi-swarming is perfectly acceptable and viable because "squads" and "tactics", the PLC is a "lolgun", and that snipers hide in the redline or are instagibbed anyways.
I'll allow snipers generally being unable to defend themselves- a sidearm is almost never the equal of a light weapon unless you already outclassed your opposition anyways.
But the whole "suicidal swarms" thing... yeah, no. The Amarr Logi is really the only logi that can viably run swarms. For any other Logi suit it's basically saying to enemy infantry "hey, I'm a free kill! COME AND GET A FREE KILL!!"
And your derision of the PLC is unwarranted- in skilled hands it's quite capable, and honestly I consider it to be one of the better support-oriented weapons in the game.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Lasers don't have that bad of fitting, at least to the point of making your suit unusable. They're also good on their own except for armor heavies and heavily tanked armor meds.
Laser Rifles do not have draconian fittings. They are, however, similar to swarms in that someone who gets in your face has basically gotten a free kill- while it's somewhat possible to use the LR at less than 20 meters with some effectiveness, it's going to come down to you either outclassing your opposition anyways, at which point they are bad and you are not, OR it will come down to them being distracted by your teammates.
Relying on your teammates to keep you alive only works if you can actually communicate with them, and even then it's a 50/50 chance. Relying on the enemy to be incompetent is an excellent way to never win anything.
Scrambler Rifles however, have draconian fitting requirements, and quite frankly the Assault Scrambler Rifle is just plain bad right now, and the overheat limitation of the traditional Scrambler makes it undesirable to use without a secondary weapon.
Moreover, laser damage is incredibly undesirable on its own, due to the penalized armor damage. This is especially the case at present due to the armor-dominated meta.
A LR-Logi is borderline suicidal on the non-Amarr Logis. A MD-Logi isn't always the best platform for the weapon, but it's very possible to make it work- MD Logis at one time were a staple squad element. The LR Logi has never been such, due primarily to the lack of a sidearm.
Vulpses Dolosus wrote:But again, the focus of the logi isn't on offenses but on support, and with theses changes and suggestions, the Amarr logi moves away from being offensive and more towards support (more lows for more ehp, more slots).
There is such a thing as "offensive support", wherein one provides cover/suppression fire for friendly team-/squad-mates. The LR and MD- and to a lesser extent the PLC- excel at this role. In the case of the MD, it's possible to make it work. In the case of the PLC, it's basically a case of "you must be godly with the PLC to be good with this combination", while the LR is basically suicidal on non-Amarr Logi suits.
I would like to be able to still build viable LR and PLC fits using the Amarr Logi. Losing that would be very displeasing to me.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:I'd be all for giving a partial respec (I mean, CCP already allows you to buy one, I think they'd be more liberal with handing out the free ones).
This is far from a suit-breaking change. Sure, you may need to rely on your teammates a bit more and not be as aggressive, but every other logi manages it so it's not impossible.
Quite frankly I consider all the logis to be ass right now, and that I also trust the Logi CPM (you know, that guy by the name of "Cross Atu") to be much more in tune with what the Logi community wants.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:You do realize that a defining feature of the every other Logi has always been that they forgo a sidearm, right? There's no other suit in the game that is such an outlier in its class. And added offensive capability directly goes against its role as a logi. It's like giving an equipment slot to a heavy.
And it's also historically the case that the HP loss of the Logi suit compared to the Assault was minimal. At one time, Assaults even had two equipment slots at proto level. There was even a time that Assaults had fewer module slots than Logis.
At this point I contend that we could probably give all the logis a sidearm slot and not really change around their fittings (aside from the ridiculous CPU shortage of the CalLogi and the PG shortage of the AmLogi) and Assaults would still be preferred by dedicated slayers- sure, you can get more versatility out of the Logi, but the durability, weaponry, and mobility advantages of an Assault are incredibly potent and noticeable.
With that said, given that the current bonuses of the Logis incentivize to different styles of play- the active, in-hand equips (Gal/Min) and deployables (Am/Cal), I would say that the Caldari Logi is the best candidate for additional expansion of the Logis into more "offensive" support roles, such as AV or suppression fire with, say, a LR.
The Amarr Logi already does something cool and unique- it can viably and effectively run AV weapons, as well as LRs, with excellent results. While the damage and reload bonuses of the Commandos are more useful for AV, and the Amarr Assault heat bonus makes it the premier LR platform, it's nice to have an option that can compromise on some degree of firepower in exchange for greater support utility.
Exchanging an equipment slot in order to gain a sidearm slot is, IMO, well worth it.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
208
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Posted - 2014.12.07 20:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!
[...]
[Emphasis mine]
I contend that the reason there are no complaints is simply because few to no Logis actually run Swarms, the PLC, or the LR on their suits. Obviously there was the notable exception of Ghazbaran running a GalLogi+PLC combo, but I'd say he's the exception that rather proves the rule- he invested the time and SP to have incredible ability with the PLC that he was able to adequately defend himself with just it.
With the PLC, the argument almost holds water. With Swarms, it is literally impossible for a Logi to fight back unless they have godly skills with grenades or are very good at punching things to death. Both options are statistically unlikely- not only in occurrence but also in success of such a tactic.
The LR suffers from a similar problem- while fantastically effective against infantry at long range (minimum of 50+ meters), it is incredibly dicey to try and use up close when someone's in your face. In fact, as I elaborated above, the LR's viability at close range more-or-less relies upon your enemy to be incompetent.
Only the stupid and foolish rely on enemy incompetence to win.
Moreover, I also contend that the Assault is not some "jack-of-all-trades" platform that should be used if you want a secondary weapon with Swarms/PLC/LR. Assaults are supposedly intended to be the preferred slayer suit... so why should they be the preferred choice for AV/support fire weapons with a defensive armament?
If anything, your argument could have been compelling if you'd approached it from the position that Commandos are supposed to be fire support, while Assaults slay everything and Logis provide equipment-oriented support.
But of course, you'd also probably disagree with more offensively-oriented equipment items.
Finally, I would find it perfectly acceptable for the Caldari Logi to be made the shield analogue of the Amarr Logi. If you're wondering "why CalLogi" then the answer is simple: both the Am/Cal logi suits are focused on deployable equipment bonuses. Which then results in such a logi potentially having "more time on their hands" that they can then spend shooting stuff.
Obviously there's some (stupid) perception that logis are not "combat suits", so they shouldn't be busy slaying stuff. So why not give the Amarr/Caldari Logis ways in which they can support their teams offensively that aren't just "kill other players".
Why shouldn't their be a Logi suit with a sidearm that can function as AV in a non-suicidal fashion? It certainly prevents said Logi from having masses of kills, doesn't it?
Because quite frankly this whole proposal reeks of the old hysteria about slayer logis. If you cannot understand why slayer logis simply cannot become a thing again, then I recommend that you not make comments about Logi balance at all.
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