DUST Search - Theoretically Win FW 50% Of Time

Ghosts Chance wrote:

Clone D wrote:

Ghosts Chance wrote:

Clone D wrote:

Ghosts Chance wrote:

FACTION WARFARE DOES NOT HAVE MATCHMAKING

read

You are wrong because two teams end up playing each other comprised of assorted individuals and squads. That implies some match making process being used to build the teams. Whether or not the algorithm places agents based on some calculated weight is another question.

If there is no rhym or reason to the agent placement within a team, then why is my FW experience many standard deviations away from the statistical norm, which would suggest about a 50% success rate?

I want to know how the teams are constructed, weighted or not.

a 50% sucess rate only applys to a RANDOM outcome.

as if win and lose were binary.

winning isnt random and therefore you wont win 50% of the time. statistical norms only function in that manner when the outcome is randomly decided.

setup one build amaar team from first 16 people in line...

squad 3 people
solo
solo
solo
squad 6 people
squad 5 people (error too many people on team A )
-removes squad 5 people
solo
solo
solo
solo

there thats how it builds a frigging team. the ONLY thing it conciiders is weather or not the team has exactly 16 people iin it.

if it has less than 16 then it add the next person (or squad) in line

if it has more than 16 people then it removes the last thing it added

if it has exactly 16 peopel then it starts the match

FW is for organised teams. your loosing more than 50% of the time becuas your not bringing your own organised team.

You seem a little bit emotional in your response.

It is a 50% probability.

50% my team will be built in such a way that they have an advantage.
50% the opposing team will be built in such a way that they have an advantage.

nope

where are you getting 50% from? becuase from my perspective

5% chance of you buildinng your team in a way that gives you an advantage
95% chance of me building MY team in a way that gives me an advantage

i noow have a 95% chance to win

in faction war YOU BUILD YOUR OWN TEAM, sure you can rely on random to do it, but the enamy team doesnt as they can get 16 people into the same game at will and all be communicating with each other.

its not random in the slightest, i can pick and choose all 16 members of my team if i wish, meaning im building that dvantage into my team on purpose whereas your waiting for that advantagee to be randomly handed to you, lowing your odds of winning below 50%

IT IS NOT RANDOM!

you lose becuasse im hand picking my entire team and you are choseing to take the first 15 other people that want to play


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TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 651	Posted - 2014.12.04 03:51:00 - [1] - Quote Clone D wrote: Statistically, shouldn't I be assigned to the team that will win FW 50% of the time? While I have finished in the top 3 every FW battle, the teams that I have been assigned to have lost 19 out of 20 battles. That defies the statistical chance that I should be assigned to the winning team and I suspect something is very fishy about the way we are placed on teams. @Devs, can you provide some transparency on the exact details of how we are assigned to teams during match making. I need this information in order to alter how I am placed on teams, as your algorithm almost always assigns me to the losing FW team. @FW teams that I have been assigned to, I hate you. You suck. You suck. Do something useful. Stop waiting out thte match in the redline and go capture an objective. Jeez Louise. I thought the algorithm was that there isn't an algorithm. We don't have enough players for any algorithm to actually work... I thought they trashed all that back in 1.6 when pub matches were taking 5 minutes to start and would often start with only 1-4 players on each team...
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 652	Posted - 2014.12.04 04:09:00 - [2] - Quote Clone D wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: I thought the algorithm was that there isn't an algorithm. We don't have enough players for any algorithm to actually work... I thought they trashed all that back in 1.6 when pub matches were taking 5 minutes to start and would often start with only 1-4 players on each team... I just can't explain my FW team losses probabilistically. It is confounding me. There has to be some finicky CCP algorithm driving this sadistic match making process. I feel you and I think we all get that. There's the age old gem that a good squad increases your odds but that's easier said then done as players have varying time schedules and what players rarely ever say is that any squad is not a good squad. If you hitch up with guys that go .2 K/DR consistently then they will probably cost every single match due to getting cloned out. When you solo play, it definitely feels like it comes in weird waves. I'll go 5 games on terribad teams that just aren't even worth trying and another 5 games will be complete stomps where I feel bored. Very rarely are the matches close and enjoyable. For the most part I've stopped caring and just made up my own fun ways to pass the time when I'm in bad matches. Typically that involves flying drop ships at high speeds around the map seeing how quickly I can bank and avoid damage if I never stop lol. Or I'll murder taxi or Snipe/Forge spam from my red line if the enemy team pushes hard enough. I don't think it can really be fixed though aside from finding a couple good players that play when you do. I guess though the most important part of the game is just that it's supposed to be fun. I think people forget about that, it's why I made my corp, to hopefully remind people and myself at times that this is just a video game and if it's too frustrating to play you should probably either tone down how try hardy you are playing or cool off and do something else. It's just not worth fretting over the game. And I say all this knowing full well I get caught up and go tilt into the competitive nature of the game myself. I have an especially sore spot for people sending gloating mails when my team was getting hopelessly destroyed and I'm the only one with a positive K/DR. As to faction warfare specifically, I'd probably go with what Attim is saying... personally I just don't see the point. I don't like the teamkilling nature of it or the all or nothing attitude where my personal contribution doesn't matter if tweedle dee and tweedle dum don't get their **** together. FW is just designed to frustrate in my opinion. Which is also probably why there are such long wait times for them, because the general consensus is that they are just too frustrating by design. Personally I'd of rather them been more organic mission based game modes with personal and over all goals. But then again, when they said this was a space mercenary game, I thought all game modes would involve varying levels of contractual obligations and bonuses etc. We aren't so much mercenaries as we are Temp workers.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 656	Posted - 2014.12.04 16:06:00 - [3] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Clone D wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: Clone D wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: FACTION WARFARE DOES NOT HAVE MATCHMAKING read You are wrong because two teams end up playing each other comprised of assorted individuals and squads. That implies some match making process being used to build the teams. Whether or not the algorithm places agents based on some calculated weight is another question. If there is no rhym or reason to the agent placement within a team, then why is my FW experience many standard deviations away from the statistical norm, which would suggest about a 50% success rate? I want to know how the teams are constructed, weighted or not. a 50% sucess rate only applys to a RANDOM outcome. as if win and lose were binary. winning isnt random and therefore you wont win 50% of the time. statistical norms only function in that manner when the outcome is randomly decided. setup one build amaar team from first 16 people in line... squad 3 people solo solo solo squad 6 people squad 5 people (error too many people on team A ) -removes squad 5 people solo solo solo solo there thats how it builds a frigging team. the ONLY thing it conciiders is weather or not the team has exactly 16 people iin it. if it has less than 16 then it add the next person (or squad) in line if it has more than 16 people then it removes the last thing it added if it has exactly 16 peopel then it starts the match FW is for organised teams. your loosing more than 50% of the time becuas your not bringing your own organised team. You seem a little bit emotional in your response. It is a 50% probability. 50% my team will be built in such a way that they have an advantage. 50% the opposing team will be built in such a way that they have an advantage. nope where are you getting 50% from? becuase from my perspective 5% chance of you buildinng your team in a way that gives you an advantage 95% chance of me building MY team in a way that gives me an advantage i noow have a 95% chance to win in faction war YOU BUILD YOUR OWN TEAM, sure you can rely on random to do it, but the enamy team doesnt as they can get 16 people into the same game at will and all be communicating with each other. its not random in the slightest, i can pick and choose all 16 members of my team if i wish, meaning im building that dvantage into my team on purpose whereas your waiting for that advantagee to be randomly handed to you, lowing your odds of winning below 50% IT IS NOT RANDOM! you lose becuasse im hand picking my entire team and you are choseing to take the first 15 other people that want to play He is talking about possible outcomes IE. probability. Pulling random statistics out of your ass is pointless. Here i'll explain the logic. He is talking about how matchmaking tends to place 2 squads in one side versus 16 randoms instead of 1 squad on each side. This means there are two possible outcomes: A. it places 1 squad in each team. B. It places 2 squads on one team. That means there is a 50% chance that either will happen. Now I don't bother much with factional warfare but in pubs if this were true half the time when averaging the a thousand or so games I've played there would be a pretty close 50/50 chance of me being in a game with 1 squad on each side or 2 squads on each side. I can tell though from experience that there seems to be a higher probability of matchmaking squads together which would make sense as the game obviously uses an algorithm when dealing with Solo players vs. squads. Because with a 2-6 squad size potential and a 16 player count squads would take a much longer time to get thrown into games as the game will likely end up filling the queue with solo players faster then obtusely shaped squad numbers Edit: (6 + 6 + 6 = 18 that was a typo I missed the 1 on 18) so obviously there has to be some sort of intelligent system seperating the squad counts or squads would likely have 10 minute wait periods. With all that said, my guess is that this said intelligent system has a penchant for taking 2 6 mans from the queue and filling the rest up with solo and smaller squads. I'm sure this could be fixed but only CCP would know as they have never revealed to the public how said matchmaking works which prevents the community from proposing any helpful suggestions. Such is life. I guarantee you FW does not grab the first players it sees from the queue and throw them into matches. If so then as a solo player I'd have a wait time of roughly a few seconds and squads would have to wait several minutes. Right now everyone has to wait several minutes so they are not "Completely Random" as you put it. TL;DR: Solo players would generally lock squads out of play with the overwhelming number of players that play solo if there was no matchmaking algorithm. Edit: As to any sort of Mu I believe that was removed back when they first tried it in 1.6 because it was causing crazily imbalanced games of 4 v 10 etc. With squads and SP the way it is I don't think a Mu system could be implemented as statistical ability can vary greatly from game to game based on how invested isk/aur wise a player wishes to become. Better gear generally = better results which would constantly make a Mu system too highly variable. Think of Chess, this is definitely not Chess, there is far too much variability to be on an equal playing field.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 658	Posted - 2014.12.04 21:09:00 - [4] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Why is it so difficult to understand that there is no matchmaking. The only thing that happens other than slapping everyone into a battle is squads get priority. 6 man squad searches 6 man squad searches 3 man squad searches 7 randoms search The squads and the first random that hit search go in while the rest of the randoms keep searching. This is why Q syncs work so well and why solo searching yields incredibly long wait time. I don't think you understand what the term "No matchmaking" means. What you just described is a matchmaking system that as you even state gives priority to squads. That's not random.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 660	Posted - 2014.12.05 01:33:00 - [5] - Quote True Adamance wrote: FW doesn't have a match making process as far as I am aware. It's just the first 16 or so players who Q-Sync and the first opposing groups of players looking for a fight....which is why Q-Syncing is such a powerful strategy. Nor should FW imo really have anything more than player made match making in the form of specific planets and systems to be targeted..... if any player attempts to deploy to one of these FW zones where organised groups are engaging in region specific fighting they are asking to have their asses handed to them because there are literally 70 other systems they could be fighting in. I don't think that's how it works. I will select all factions and sync solo and still end up waiting 3-5 minutes at times. So either the game tries to hamfist squads together and then lets solo players in to fill the gaps (Which I think is what happens) or only 96 people play FW at any given time making me have to wait for a match to end. Which also may very well be the case I suppose... since FW really isn't all that beneficial to anyone Dust side although I'm not sure if it matters Eve side either? I don't know much about Eve other then its full of nerd lord douchebaggery that makes Forbes journalists cream their pants. (because it's easier then trying to regulate the game! errr.... I mean because CCP believes in free choice for players!)
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 660	Posted - 2014.12.05 01:50:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: True Adamance wrote: FW doesn't have a match making process as far as I am aware. It's just the first 16 or so players who Q-Sync and the first opposing groups of players looking for a fight....which is why Q-Syncing is such a powerful strategy. Nor should FW imo really have anything more than player made match making in the form of specific planets and systems to be targeted..... if any player attempts to deploy to one of these FW zones where organised groups are engaging in region specific fighting they are asking to have their asses handed to them because there are literally 70 other systems they could be fighting in. I don't think that's how it works. I will select all factions and sync solo and still end up waiting 3-5 minutes at times. So either the game tries to hamfist squads together and then lets solo players in to fill the gaps (Which I think is what happens) or only 96 people play FW at any given time making me have to wait for a match to end. Which also may very well be the case I suppose... All I want to be able to do is target specific planets and systems my alliance and militia want's plexing bonuses in. If anyone attempts to join us in that system enemy or otherwise they'd better be ******* ready to fight and not start whining later. They had their chance to choose one of 69 other systems to fight in. I'm all for expanded gameplay so hell yeah, they should get on that. That's one thing this game severly lacks. Context in which anything really matters. As it stands its mostly just a cross between Battlefield and Counter Strike where you get to keep all the money you earn to spend on better gear between matches. And of course the whole grindy rpg sp thing. As cool as it is to have some new maps for the only 3 game modes we have I'd love to see the Dust road map include more diversity. With the upcoming addition of dailies I'm hoping they will add contextual quest like additions to the dailies to make players feel more like mercenaries and less like temp workers bouncing around all these Eve NPC corps. And I get that the ps3 just absolutely will not support Dust with more than 32 players but how about some new game modes and smaller maps for lower player count matches? Like some of those Eve ships being the setting of some 8 player free for alls in the context of a mutiny on the ship or space stations being the location of 6 v 6 squad contract disputes.How about giving us custom matches where you can earn SP but can't earn isk unless its offered by the match creator. This would allow players to set up there own tournaments, corp tryouts, training missions, friendly or unfriendly competition between corporations/squads , 1v1 me bruh moments, and so on. Maybe then squadding won't be bitched about as much since solo players will have some game mode options that exclude squadding while squads will be able to play matches with each other without having to q-sync. Let us self regulate CCP it's not like the Dust economy matters with all the district locking and billions of clone isk that flooded from such things. They don't even have to re invent the wheel many other fps games have interesting game modes that would work in Dust and also diversify the monotony. Everyone bitches so much about q-syncing pub stomps and FW because that's all we can do besides walk around in our quarters.