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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
190
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Posted - 2014.12.03 23:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, first off, get your numbers right please. The following:
STD: 1200 damage
ADV: 1500 damage
PRO: 1800 damage
Is the correct "damage" statistics for Flux grenades.
Secondly the only real issue with flux grenades is that they seem to be designed to provide both anti-shield functionality against infantry and vehicles at the same time.
Nerfing the damage of flux grenades means that they are made inferior at fighting shield vehicles (yes, that is indeed a thing), but there's a lot of people (like yourself) that contend that they are too powerful against infantry.
My personal stance is that they are fine- while flux grenades do seem to be increasing in proliferation, I would chalk that up to low-end Locus grenades having a perceived lack of utility. On the whole, however, flux grenades I perfectly fine- and those who point out the increased resistance to more traditional explosives (excluding REs because REs are freaking OP) are correct- MDs and Locus grenades have much greater difficulty against heavy shielding (like Caldari suits have).
Flux grenades are also- as noted- incapable of producing lethal damage. I'd say that that's a pretty big downside. For anti-infantry, spamming flux grenades might get you a lot of assists. Against vehicles, you can almost farm vehicle damage, except that you do have to get close to something that moves faster than you 99% of the time.
Spamming locus will probably net you kills. Spamming AV nades will probably net you vehicle destructions. Spamming flux will probably get you a lot of equipment destroys, and maybe some kill assists.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
193
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Posted - 2014.12.04 03:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Jacques Cayton II wrote:This game makes it clear. You can't have anti infantry and anti vehicle example forges are gimped (not assaults) swarms are only vehicle when they used to be dumb fire. And plc is the only random child. Flux does way to much damage to shields on infantry. All you need is a tier of 500 750 900 not 1200 to start off. Shields are gimped enough without rep tools or triage nanos so they need to stand a chance against armor. How are you suggesting Forges and PLC are in some way not functioning well? Honestly they seem absolutely fine to me. One is an anti material rifle....... you get hit by it and you die....kind of like a tank shell. PLC is like an RPG. Shot a tank it gets hurt, shoot and infantryman they bleed.
He has a slight point about non-assault variant Forges... but not in the way he thinks. The flaw of the Forge Gun is that the assault variant outclasses the other two in almost every possible way. It's not so much "non-A FG is gimped", as it is "AFG outclasses the other two".
Moreover, re-tiering flux damage to 500/750/900 (also, that's a stupid tiering that makes no sense) is dumb, because flux grenades do perform as a multi-role grenade that can't actually kill things.
This is part of what makes the Flux actually balanced- it can't actually kill things. It can strip shields and wipe out equipment, and is even a dangerous threat to shield-based vehicles (HAVs mostly), but it cannot actually kill a player.
The PLC is not "a random child"- to actually kill infantry with a PLC requires something called "skill", BTW. It would be classed similarly to the FG- as an anti-material weapon, capable of effectively engaging any target on the battlefield.
The chief balancing factor of the FG is that it requires a heavy suit to carry it, while the PLC's chief balancing factor is its single-shot nature and relatively long reload time.
In the case of the flux grenade's duality, the balancing factor is, as mentioned, the device's inability to kill a player.
TL;DR: flux grenades are surprisingly well balanced, and you should use your brain more Mr. Cayton.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
193
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 03:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:I don't even play the game anymore. I'm just a forum warrior since my PS3 broke, but I think the tiers of fluxes need to be changed.
It's an AV/Infantry grenade that doubles as an anti-equipment spam utility. That's too much versatility for a basic grenade.
Starting off at 1200 damage is just too much.
As for the dumbass that said he's gonna make a thread about locus grenades and armor-based suits, locus grenades aren't anti-equipment, aren't anti-AV and don't have a massive radius. Locus grenades are balanced and armor heavies usually shrug off a core locus, but it's impossible for a cal heavy to just shrug off a flux and keep going.
There's no real balance between the two.
...I don't know what game you've been playing, but the radius on Flux grenades and Locus grenades is the same. Both have anti-equipment applications; the main reason the flux is more desirable for that duty is because flux grenades work through walls.
Which is actually kind of cool.
That being said, such a feature is most often useful for trying to kill links that are glitched into geometry, since that is very annoying to deal with.
As the claim that a Caldari Sentinel can't shrug off a flux and keep going, I have but one question for you: do flux grenades kill Caldari Sentinels?.
Because things like Core Locus kill a whole lot of two-legged infantry stuffs.
I will also note that the anti-vehicular utility of the Flux is of almost no benefit when fighting armor-vehicles, and is incapable of actually damaging armor.
Locus grenades deal less damage, in part because they can actually inflict armor damage and thus can actually kill players. Flux grenades, however, cannot do this.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
193
|
Posted - 2014.12.04 04:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jacques Cayton II wrote:I can tell you dont shield tank because i dont see a grenade that takes 800+ hp from armor tankers
Well, as a fun fact: Core Locus does 600 damage. It deals explosive damage, so it gets a +20% bonus against armor.
That means that a Core Locus grenade does 720 damage against armor. That's pretty close to 800, and even more it can and will kill a player.
You still have not answered the relevant question. Since you don't seem inclined to do so, I'll answer it for you:
No, flux grenades do not kill Caldari Sentinels. What's more, I just threw together a fit using ProtoFits, and with a Boundless HMG, Core Locus grenades, and a proto Flaylock (I will admit that the Caldari Sentinel seems to be very lacking in CPU, however that is a separate issue) I was able to rig up a Caldari Sentinel with ~784 shields, a total of ~1271 HP, and some amazingly low delays.
As in, 0.68 seconds depleted, 2.46 seconds recharge delay, and a 66 hp/s shield recharge rate. I'm reasonably certain that I could probably drive the shield recharge higher, but I'd need to swap an extender out for that.
In fact, I just checked, and swapping 2x Complex Recharges for 1x Complex Energizer+1x Enhanced Energizer yields ~720 shield HP, ~1207 total HP, and a roughly 81 hp/s recharge rate.
So in other words, you can get hit by a flux, and less than a second later your shield recharge goes through the roof- literally, you will need just under 9 seconds to get to max shields. As an amusing point, the Burst HMG (which is very well suited to cover-based engagements) seems like it would be ideal on both the Caldari and Minmatar Sentinels- the former can play cover shenanigans with a just under 2.5 second recharge delay and 81 hp/s recharge rate, while the latter can make use of its speed to get epic flanks off.
So it seems like even if I don't use shield tanked suits- or at least only once in a blue moon- I have a better grasp on how shield suits are best leveraged. Who new, eh?
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