DUST Search - How many would agree?

Sir Dukey wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

In my mind under the current model, and I'm more than willing to be proven wrong, the only way to rectify this issue is through a couple of steps (assuming the Gunnlogi is left as is).

(Model assumed at proto level)

1.) Armour HAV fitting Capacity increased to allow for all proto module selection
2.) Reintroduction of 180mm plating (offers 2750 armour at PRO level)
3.) Active Repair Modules brought back and Hardeners to 30%
4.) Shield HAV tanking stats altered to 3000 Shield, 1250 Armour

Example

A Standard Gunnlogi might look like

1x Ion Cannon
2x Particle Cannon
1x Complex Shield Hardener
2x Complex Heavy Shield Extenders

1x Complex PG Module
1x Complex CPU Module

5650 Shield (*1.4 = 7910) 1250 Armour = total 9160

A Standard Madrugar might look like

1x Ion Cannon
2x 20GJ Scattered Blasters
1x Complex 180mm Polycrystalline Armour Plating
1x Complex Type N Carapace Hardener
1x Heavy Efficient Armour Repairer
1x Damage Control
1x Heat Sink II

1200 Shield, 6750 Armour (*1.3 = 8775 ) = total 9975 (9637.5 EHP if assuming 1.25 modifier on hardener and only 477.5 EHP difference.)

Now bear in mind the Armour HAV is supposed to be the brawler tank, and is still subject to enhanced AV damage, and has no passive reps for only 815 extra armour (less than 1 seconds worth of DPS on any vehicle large turret).

So you have to use two complex fitting modules to fit that stuff. That's like me saying when I put two complex fitting modules on my Caldari Assault I can fit almost everything easily (Which you can with two fitting modules)

I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...


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True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15308	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:07:00 - [1] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: CPU PG buff vehicles. AV will remain potent AF. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Nerf Shield Tank Fitting Capacity so Sica cannot run full proto modules and so Shield HAV cannot armour tank! Raise Armour tank Fitting Capacity so that it is then on par with Shield modules and then actually viable! I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15310	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:09:00 - [2] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: CPU PG buff vehicles. AV will remain potent AF. Agree. There would only be a marginal increase in vehicle effectivity, but will make way for more creative or diverse fittings. You can't really have diverse fittings with only 2-3 main rack slots. Dropships are passable, but HAVs and LAVs have extremely limited number of fits and it has little to do with PG/CPU. I mean sure, I can probably fit better modules with PG/CPU, but the types of modules will remain unchanged. It's not even that, it's that if you want to put on small turrets you have to throw a lot of essential modules down the drain and settle for crappy ones. YOU CAN THOUGH any shield HAV can run full proto modules, turret, and small turrets RIGHT NOW! Armour tanks cannot! And should shield tank forgo small turrets they can also Armour tank with is unacceptable. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15312	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:42:00 - [3] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: has the consideration been made that maybe a standard hav shouldnt be able to fit all proto mods and a weapon? i understand theres no proto tank. but i think its appropriate that a standard tank has fitting difficulty with mods that rank much higher than the tank itself. now as true adamance brought up the madrugar falls short of the gunnlogi. a buff there to make it as usefull as the gunnlogi. or a gunnlogi nerf so it cant armor tank and be much better than the madrugar is fine. but i dont think all tanks need pg cpu buffs/ im not aware of fitting issues with lavs or dropships. is that an issue? my memorys fuzzy and i dont know what theyre stats are nowadays. i just used to use a lav with a railgun and fuel injectors and it was fine for me. and thats just basic or militia mods. but again its a basic lav. There are actually a lot of things that need reconsidering for HAV currently. 1.) A Sica (MLT Tier HAV) can fit a full proto load out. 2.) Shield HAV have free access to fitting modules without compromising Racial Tank and alsoalready have impressive fitting capacity 3.) Armour HAV suffer in three fields a.) Lack of fitting capacity, b.) Hardeners being 15% less efficient, c.) Anti Armour AV climate Firstly no Sica should be able to have 3950 Shield, and 3385 armour and a 40% Shield Hardener, and a Proto Turret while the Standard Armour HAV can barely make a 5000 EHP competitive fit. This is only possible because of the Shield HAV's gratuitous fitting allowances. Then on to the AV options. I could name 10 Anti Armour AV options and only 3 Anti Shield Options. This means the already low EHP Armour HAV have even less ability to tank fire while Shield HAV gain another 20% resistance on top of their already more efficient hardeners and can essentially ignore Swarm launchers, AV grenades, and ADS. It seems to me the original HAV archetypes have been fundamentally reversed. Armour is now passive regeneration focused and can move incredibly fast in and out of situations while shields are stand an deliver options with greater EHP pools. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15312	Posted - 2014.12.02 04:59:00 - [4] - Quote In my mind under the current model, and I'm more than willing to be proven wrong, the only way to rectify this issue is through a couple of steps (assuming the Gunnlogi is left as is). (Model assumed at proto level) 1.) Armour HAV fitting Capacity increased to allow for all proto module selection 2.) Reintroduction of 180mm plating (offers 2750 armour at PRO level) 3.) Active Repair Modules brought back and Hardeners to 30% 4.) Shield HAV tanking stats altered to 3000 Shield, 1250 Armour Example A Standard Gunnlogi might look like 1x Ion Cannon 2x Particle Cannon 1x Complex Shield Hardener 2x Complex Heavy Shield Extenders 1x Complex PG Module 1x Complex CPU Module 5650 Shield (1.4 = 7910) 1250 Armour = total 9160 A Standard Madrugar might look like 1x Ion Cannon 2x 20GJ Scattered Blasters 1x Complex 180mm Polycrystalline Armour Plating 1x Complex Type N Carapace Hardener 1x Heavy Efficient Armour Repairer 1x Damage Control 1x Heat Sink II 1200 Shield, 6750 Armour (1.3 = 8775 ) = total 9975 (9637.5 EHP if assuming 1.25 modifier on hardener and only 477.5 EHP difference.) Now bear in mind the Armour HAV is supposed to be the brawler tank, and is still subject to enhanced AV damage, and has no passive reps for only 815 extra armour (less than 1 seconds worth of DPS on any vehicle large turret). I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15344	Posted - 2014.12.02 21:12:00 - [5] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: True Adamance wrote: In my mind under the current model, and I'm more than willing to be proven wrong, the only way to rectify this issue is through a couple of steps (assuming the Gunnlogi is left as is). (Model assumed at proto level) 1.) Armour HAV fitting Capacity increased to allow for all proto module selection 2.) Reintroduction of 180mm plating (offers 2750 armour at PRO level) 3.) Active Repair Modules brought back and Hardeners to 30% 4.) Shield HAV tanking stats altered to 3000 Shield, 1250 Armour Example A Standard Gunnlogi might look like 1x Ion Cannon 2x Particle Cannon 1x Complex Shield Hardener 2x Complex Heavy Shield Extenders 1x Complex PG Module 1x Complex CPU Module 5650 Shield (1.4 = 7910) 1250 Armour = total 9160 A Standard Madrugar might look like 1x Ion Cannon 2x 20GJ Scattered Blasters 1x Complex 180mm Polycrystalline Armour Plating 1x Complex Type N Carapace Hardener 1x Heavy Efficient Armour Repairer 1x Damage Control 1x Heat Sink II 1200 Shield, 6750 Armour (1.3 = 8775 ) = total 9975 (9637.5 EHP if assuming 1.25 modifier on hardener and only 477.5 EHP difference.) Now bear in mind the Armour HAV is supposed to be the brawler tank, and is still subject to enhanced AV damage, and has no passive reps for only 815 extra armour (less than 1 seconds worth of DPS on any vehicle large turret). So you have to use two complex fitting modules to fit that stuff. That's like me saying when I put two complex fitting modules on my Caldari Assault I can fit almost everything easily (Which you can with two fitting modules) You can though. The point I am trying to make is that Shield HAV can have respectable and significantly higher EHP through a straight racial shield tank against most AV options than an Armour Tanks can, AND if you so choose to fit Small Turrets as not everyone does, have free access to fitting modules to allow for a 8620 EHP platform with well around 2000 DPS if fully manned. However an Armour tank cannot hope to match that in any form. I can match your DPS but I'll have less regenerative capacity and almost 2000 less EHP. I can attempt to match that EHP but have less DPS and regenerative capacity. If I chose on a Shield tank to forgo the Small Turrets I can even Armour Tank my Shield HAV.......... I cannot Hybrid tank my Armour HAV under any circumstances. Hell even Shield HAV that forgo that 2nd Complex Shield Extender will likely have more EHP than me, more regenerative Capacity, AND more DPS due to that Damage module you often see in their high slots. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15344	Posted - 2014.12.02 21:18:00 - [6] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: CPU PG buff vehicles. AV will remain potent AF. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Nerf Shield Tank Fitting Capacity so Sica cannot run full proto modules and so Shield HAV cannot armour tank! Raise Armour tank Fitting Capacity so that it is then on par with Shield modules and then actually viable! Yes and no. I have two versions of Gunnis for each type of turret: 1 proto large turret that is meant to be driven solo and the other version has a basic turret + 2 small turrets for the rare occasion I can actually get someone to hop in. Solo versions generally have about 3,800 shield and 2,500 armor + 2 shield hardeners for tank v tank battles. I sacrifice one hardener in favor of an extender for the small turret builds. Compare that to my poor Maddys; I have one equipped with an Ion Cannon, injector, scanner, and three repairers (one is advanced, all other modules are basic.) The other Maddy has the basic large and small blaster turrets (only one small, however) along with two scanners, two repairers and one hardener (all basic.) Again, CPU is almost maxed out but I have something like 400 PG sitting there, unused. The Gunni is great for its versatility and I don't have a major problem with the fitting capacity. Sicas may need to be reduced. But Somas/Maddys...they need at least 100 more CPU to allow for better armor modules along with a small HP boost of about 500 or so. Direct EHP buffs are pointless because they do not address the fundamental issue with tanks. Where once the Armour HAV was the brick with high EHP and the stand and deliver capacity it's now the hit and run HAV, while the shield has taken its original role. Pre 1.7 Armour tanking was enjoyable. Now it is no longer viable or enjoyable. I mean most Standard Maddy are instantly destroyed by a missile launcher turret without exception..... yet shield HAV are resistant to and can react to any other kind of turret. There is no reason the Armour HAV should not have comparable capacity. Two modules that were removed with 1.7 that benefited Armour HAV significantly were the Heat Sink (decreased heat build up) and the Damage Control Unit (between 5-9 % resistances to shield and armour). Also at one time shield reflected their EVE counter parts and passively regenerated constantly. Hell think of what could happen if CCP introduced Shield Regulators on HAV as low slot modules. A Shield HAV could produce a full passive tank without having to abuse its fitting capacity for Armour modules. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15345	Posted - 2014.12.02 21:40:00 - [7] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Eh not that biased. Armor HAVs are VERY hard to fit compared to shield tanks. You can easily fit full proto on a shield HAV, but cannot do the same for armor. I'm usually putting extra random **** on my Gunnlogis because I can, and I'm usually leaving a high slot empty on my madrugar because Im out of resources. True but he's acting like OMG shield HAV's can fit what ever they want and have it all complex. Actually, shield HAV's have better fitting capabilities because their tank is in the High so they can use low for other modules. It's not the gunnlogi's fault that fitting modules are on the lows. This is true with damage mods, we gunnlogis aren't very good at fitting scanners, fuel injectors or damage mods. (We are but we give up a lot of tank to fit those modules). I'd say you're right except I can usually fit an armor plate in my low as well on my shield tanks So it's not just lows being used for fitting modules. A suggestion that could alter and possible see to fixing this is the return of constant, low, passive shield regen like in the old days. So rather than a 4 second delay with 168 regen/sec a constant regeneration of 34/sec and a return of the old Shield Recharger modules in the low slots could really work wonders for de-incentivising armour tanking on Shield Hulls. For example- The only Ward Shield Recharger modified Regen rate by 19% and the old Sagaris HP values was roughly 24/sec. If this was increased to 34/sec on the new hulls and the Rechargers were altered so that with a PG extender the Gunnlogi could fit one and the Sagaris say 2 @ a static modifier of 20-25% You are looking at possibly a passive regeneration rate of 40.8 on the Gunnlogi and 47/sec on the Sagaris and still retain EHP values around 9-11K I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15345	Posted - 2014.12.02 22:03:00 - [8] - Quote TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: CPU PG buff vehicles. AV will remain potent AF. Agree. There would only be a marginal increase in vehicle effectivity, but will make way for more creative or diverse fittings. You can't really have diverse fittings with only 2-3 main rack slots. Dropships are passable, but HAVs and LAVs have extremely limited number of fits and it has little to do with PG/CPU. I mean sure, I can probably fit better modules with PG/CPU, but the types of modules will remain unchanged. You maybe, but my standard dropships would become floating fortresses if I had more CPU/PG with all dem slots. That's the only place it would make a huge difference though. Edit: Actually when I think about it that would probably be awful as standard dropships would be fitted like tanks... not sure if want... so much huey helicopter missile deaths if that happens. However on any vehicle I can think of with 4 slots...... oh hell I can think of some really nice combinations (don't know about DS or LAV) E.G- (example pops out of my imaginations only) 3x Complex Heavy Shield Extenders (+3975 Shields) 1x Complex Shield Hardener 1x PG Extender 1x Ward Shield Recharger or 2x Complex Heavy Shield Extender (+2650 Shields) 1x Complex Shield Hardener 1x Complex Shield Booster or 1x Railgun Damage Module 1x PG Extender 1x Shield Recharger or 1x Complex Heavy Shield Extender (+1325 Shields) 1x Shield Hardener 1x Shield Booster 1x Railgun Damage Module 1x PG Upgrade 1x CPU Upgrade etc and 1x 180mm Armour Plating 2x Armour Hardeners 1x Heavy Armour Repper 1x Damage Control 1x Heat Sink or 1x120mm Armour Plating 1x Armour Hardener 2x Heavy Repairer 1x Heat Sink 1x Scanner or 1x120mm Armour Plating 1x Armour Hardener 1x Heavy Armour Repairer 1x CPU Extender 1x Blaster Damage Module 1x Heat Sink etc................................ VARIATIONS GALORE! I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...