DUST Search - Risk vs. Reward

True Adamance wrote:

THUNDERGROOVE wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

-snip-

Since I'm pretty sure you're an AV guy, how do you feel about cheap STD fit tanks costing in the 80-120K range while STD dropships(Grimsnis/Myron) sit at the 55-70K? Of course if they start adding good turrets and complex mods it'll go up.

I feel if people can run them a couple times without going broke there might be more people willing to run them at all. It's not really a problem with me since we always help eachother out with money but I really want people to enjoy vehicles like I did in early uprising.

At least getting people into other aspect of the game, for that matter.

EW NO!

Vehicles need to be more expensive not less expensive. Especially for what they are now.

Even a Sica fitted properly (aka can be fitted will full Proto module load out) is cheap as chips as it stands and can sit there with 9000 EHP vs explosives...... Gunnlogi does the same thing better at 9509 EP vs explosive options.


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THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1208	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:30:00 - [1] - Quote So I've been thinking a lot lately while I've been playing faction warefare in EVE about how risk vs. reward works in DUST or rather, how it doesn't. This isn't a nerf this buff that thread, but rather a few changes to make more gameplay styles viable full time. Some of the basic spots I see problems are Vehicles Scouts Snipers Let us rewind a bit, to my recent experiences in EVE. Mainly in FW. Recently, the remains of the Minmatar militia have been plexing(Basically orbiting something in space for a set amount of time in low sec and being rewarded with LP. Every time someone does this, the system becomes more contested.) in the system Helgatild. The I an in alliance attempted several times to fight them on the plexes to stop them from flipping the system. Our initial attempt was 6-7 of us in Imperial Navy Slicers generally fit to be fast with good range but are very weak and cost quite a lot for a frigate. They had roughly 15 cheaply fit Merlins with remote shield logis in Bursts. They roughly had twice as many pilots, but their ships cost 5X less then ours and thus, they won the "ISK war". After reshipping and getting a few more people, we still wanted to try running the quick Slicers, although some of us brought other fast "kitey" ships. When we all get back in Helgatild they now had 20 people in system. We had 15. We sought the opportunity to get into a novice plex that just opened (only frigs allowed) because they were split up in the large(anything can be in) and the medium(cruisers and smaller can be in). This meant that our fast, long range ships can dictate range, when you warp into a plex there is always an acceleration gate that takes anyone in at the same spot. We see their fleet warp on our directional scan and burn away from them in a group so we don't get tackled. We killed off several of them that burned away from their group but we warped off with only three casualties on our side. And so this time we won the "ISK war", but they still are plexing the system. Their ships were very cheap, yet effective in larger numbers. My corp had a stockpile of Tristans(Gallente frigates) and Inquisitors(Amarr logistics frigates) and we attempt to use the same tactics against them with little success we had 20 while their fleet grew to 40. We fought several more times after this, even using their exact fleet composition "Ghetto Merlins". The entire constant of us not being able to win the fight is that we were outnumbered. Even though their ships were much cheaper in most cases they had numbers. In every single fight we knew how much we were all risking and what we were going against, even with being outnumbered. We have a set level of risk and a clear reward. Now, how does this have anything to do with DUST? _______________________________________________________ Let's start with vehicles. So a pilot calls out a neutron blaster fit Madrugar which would cost 300-400K depending on module choices. That is what he is risking. He knows that they will get roughly 150K up to 350K if they're lucky. With the way payments are, there's very little room to loose tanks without supplemental income. It would be completely understandable for a tank to die to a single force of equally risking or skilled opponent or to a larger force of less risking/skilled opponents but with the way AV is you're very likely to lose at least one tank a game if not more. Even if it may seem to an outside player that the pilot is just a no skill kill farmer he still is filling a role that exists in the game and should still be treated no differently than a logi. _______________________________________________________ On to scouts. Many people claim that the scout is low risk and they have every inclination to do so, but for the wrong reasons in many cases. The scouts currently are good at two things Scanning and assassination. Many scouts' preferred method is using remotes however as anyone who played competitively in early uprising would tell you, they were used just as often on slayer Caldari assault fits. Even though remotes are a lot easier to use actively on a scout due to increased mobility it's still the remotes. I hate spawning into remote just as much as anyone else, as it's very low risk behavior. I primarily run an almost all EWAR scanning scout to provide intel to my squad and as such I usually have high KD/R because I can pick and choose my fights, this may be viewed as low risk but I'm in a very weak suit that pretty much any decent fit suit would have no problems killing. This instance I find mostly balanced in terms of risk vs. reward. Any mistake and this suit is dead nearly instantly and it gets very few WPs. But maybe I'm biased. _______________________________________________________ Snipers..... Need I say more? _______________________________________________________ Having a decent balanced risk/reward system in place would mean more diversity as the people who chose not to do what they enjoy simply because they're limited by their wallets will be able to do what they find enjoyable in the game instead of worrying so much about having to run what is efficient or good. How do you guys feel about risk vs. reward right now? What are your ideas on fixing some of these problems? ** the meta. the FoTM. ** what anyone else does. Just have fun with what time we have left in this game. Quick edit: I typed this up while sleep deprived and unable to sleep from a headache so I apologize if bad post was bad. Come play a better game.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1209	Posted - 2014.12.01 13:11:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: -snip- Since I'm pretty sure you're an AV guy, how do you feel about cheap STD fit tanks costing in the 80-120K range while STD dropships(Grimsnis/Myron) sit at the 55-70K? Of course if they start adding good turrets and complex mods it'll go up. I feel if people can run them a couple times without going broke there might be more people willing to run them at all. It's not really a problem with me since we always help eachother out with money but I really want people to enjoy vehicles like I did in early uprising. At least getting people into other aspect of the game, for that matter. Come play a better game.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1215	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:12:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Not unless I can kill those fits with STD AV. Using similar skilled piloting/AVing and similar levels of SP this would make sense. Atiim wrote: Yes, you do need to say more about Snipers as I don't see your point about them. This was just an example one of the many things in DUST where risk vs reward is broken, and easily fixable yet hasn't been touched. Breakin Stuff wrote: Yes, considering they have to park within my retaliation radius now. Please elaborate. It's fairly obvious that they're broken. People are unable to use them while not sitting 400M away because some developer 2 years ago thought giving it more scope sway than any sniper rifle in any other game was a genius idea. As such people are able to field expensive sniping suits with very little risk because anyone else sniping is very likely to be outside of the sniper rifles range. Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Try to use Amarr'ian Destroyers instead.. We did on our final attempt, but again we didn't have the numbers. The examples of my EVE experences were mainly to show that bringing friends with low risk fittings is a very viable tactic and even bringing friends with higher cost fittingss and due to being around other skilled players it becomes slightly less risky. Similar things can be said about tanks. Often times it's easier to run two tanks together because most AV is not working together and the damage gets split between the two vehicle users. Vulpes Dolosus wrote: The best choice for a kite-y frigate would be the Worm (Guristas frigate), but they're expensive. If they're going to fight outnumbered like that, it would probably be a good idea to bring some EWAR frigs (the Crucifier is pretty good at kiting turret fitted ships, Mallus could damp the Bursts out, and the Griffin is always annoying). The last couple times they fought us, they had really nice skirmish warefare links, and we had below average T1 skirmish links so even their Merlins were going faster than us. It mainly came down to us being out numbered again. But that's the only way the Minmatar fight us nowadays. Come play a better game.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1215	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:13:00 - [4] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: OP this is a pretty long don't nerf me bro thread lol. I am a scout and I don't use the cloak we are Super Heros . As far as the risk reward for tanks how much do you think people spend on there suits bro and how easily a tank rips through them. Many of the times people get killed by tanks are in very low risk suits. This is just an observation on my part that most people using decent gear can hear the sound of the tank an avoid it. And again they are just filing a role after all. Thanks for replying guys. Come play a better game.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1215	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:14:00 - [5] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Had a nice chat to you at the Huola Hub bash. AMARR VICTOR! Oh that was you? It all makes sense now! That was a lot of fun, no lifed for like 8 hours plexing before the bash. Come play a better game.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1215	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:24:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: -snip- Since I'm pretty sure you're an AV guy, how do you feel about cheap STD fit tanks costing in the 80-120K range while STD dropships(Grimsnis/Myron) sit at the 55-70K? Of course if they start adding good turrets and complex mods it'll go up. I feel if people can run them a couple times without going broke there might be more people willing to run them at all. It's not really a problem with me since we always help eachother out with money but I really want people to enjoy vehicles like I did in early uprising. At least getting people into other aspect of the game, for that matter. EW NO! Vehicles need to be more expensive not less expensive. Especially for what they are now. Even a Sica fitted properly (aka can be fitted will full Proto module load out) is cheap as chips as it stands and can sit there with 9000 EHP vs explosives...... Gunnlogi does the same thing better at 9509 EP vs explosive options. It all gets four volleyed by Minmando swarms all the same though. Come play a better game.