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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3650
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Posted - 2014.11.28 07:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
In my ongoing (and partially neurotic) quest to make all the suit bonuses feel GÇÿrightGÇÖ, IGÇÖve noticed some odd discrepancies in how bonuses are laid out between the classes. Primarily in the number of bonuses each suit gets as well as the application of said bonuses, and IGÇÖm curious if this is partially why we see certain trends within the game. So letGÇÖs take a look at each class and what bonuses they get from their Dropsuit Skill
Scouts
Role Bonus: Cloak Fitting Bonus - Requires Cloak
Racial Bonus 1: EWAR (or Hacking) - No Module/Weapon Required
Racial Bonus 2: EWAR (or Knife Damage or Stamina) - No Module/Weapon Required
Sentinels
Role Bonus: Splash Damage Reduction - No Module/Weapon Required
Racial Bonus 1: Faction Enemy Damage Resist - No Module/Weapon Required
Racial Bonus 2: Faction Ally Damage Resist - No Module/Weapon Required
Assaults
Role Bonus: Weapon Fitting Reduction - Requires Light Weapon/Grenade
Racial Bonus 1: Racial Weapon Support Bonus - Requires Racial Weapon
Racial Bonus 2: None
Commandos
Role Bonus: Reload Speed - Requires Light Weapon
Racial Bonus 1: Racial Weapon Damage Bonus - Requires Racial Weapon
Racial Bonus 2: None
Logistics
Role Bonus: Equipment Fitting Bonus - Requires Equipment
Racial Bonus 1: Racial Equipment Bonus - Requires Racial Equipment
Racial Bonus 2: None
So as you can see each role gets 1 role bonus, but the Scout and Sentinels get 2 racial bonuses whereas the Assaults, Logistics, and Commandos only get 1. I find this to be somewhat odd, particularly since the Scouts and Sentinels are particularly favored at the moment. Not that the extra racial bonus is the primary factor in this player behavior, but I think its safe to say that is is part of the reason.
That being said, Do Commandos, Assaults, and Logistics need some tweaks/addition to their bonus set to make this more consistent with Scouts and Sentinels? What do you guys think?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Dead Cavino
Titans of Phoenix
17
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Posted - 2014.11.28 09:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
I find it kinda funny how assaults, logistics, and commandos require specific weapons/equipment in order to take full advantage of the bonuses. While sentinels and scouts get passive bonuses that are always applied regardless of fitting. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5487
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Posted - 2014.11.28 09:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dead Cavino wrote:I find it kinda funny how assaults, logistics, and commandos require specific weapons/equipment in order to take full advantage of the bonuses. While sentinels and scouts get passive bonuses that are always applied regardless of fitting.
now if only there were more than two sentinel weapons...
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Funkmaster Whale
Whale Pod
2520
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Posted - 2014.11.28 10:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
We've been pointing this out since before Uprising 1.8 hit and it still hasn't gotten anywhere.
Follow me on Twitch.tv!
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
17851
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Posted - 2014.11.28 10:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
The days of pointing may soon come to an end.
In talks with CCP there is the notion that these should be module based overall on all suits not to just single out the scout suit so I will let the smart ones figure out what that means.
CPM 1
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior
\\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5488
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Posted - 2014.11.28 10:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The days of pointing may soon come to an end.
In talks with CCP there is the notion that these should be module based overall on all suits not to just single out the scout suit so I will let the smart ones figure out what that means.
So resistance modules might actually become a thing?
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University
Ivy League
2084
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Posted - 2014.11.28 11:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The days of pointing may soon come to an end.
In talks with CCP there is the notion that these should be module based overall on all suits not to just single out the scout suit so I will let the smart ones figure out what that means. So resistance modules might actually become a thing?
You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.
CPM 1 member
CEO of DUST University
Vist dustcpm.com
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
444
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Posted - 2014.11.28 11:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Racial Bonus 2: EWAR (or Knife Damage or Stamina) - No Module/Weapon Required
...
Pokey Dravon wrote: I find this to be somewhat odd, particularly since the Scouts (...) are particularly favored at the moment. You are not serious if you came to that conclusion.
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Blueprint For Murder
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
410
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Posted - 2014.11.28 11:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
If the devs make enough pointless changes they will actually be able to sustain all of their time managing said changes; hats off you guys I am astounded at the level of incompetence.
21 day fast 11/28/14 Life-$
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The Master Race
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
410
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Posted - 2014.11.28 11:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
If the devs make enough pointless changes they will actually be able to sustain all of their time managing said changes; hats off you guys I am astounded at the level of incompetence.
21 day fast 11/28/14 Life-$
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Kaeru Nayiri
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
221
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Posted - 2014.11.28 18:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
I would love to see all bonuses be MODULE ORIENTED. And on top of that the two bonuses should be applied in the following way:
First bonus is a FRAME bonus and applies to all corresponding FRAMES (ie, light frame, medium frame, heavy frame)
Second bonus is a ROLE bonus and applies specializations (scout, sentinel, commando, assault, etc)
This would give all those starter fits some skills that can boost them a bit as well as give a reason to use the non-specialized frames. |
Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
769
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Posted - 2014.11.28 19:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Scouts
Role Bonus: Cloak Fitting Bonus - Requires Cloak
Racial Bonus 1: EWAR (or Hacking) - No Module/Weapon Required
Racial Bonus 2: EWAR (or Knife Damage or Stamina) - No Module/Weapon Required
I'm under the impression that each EWAR bonus is soon to be rewired to point to its respective EWAR module. Basis:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2466381#post2466381
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2468612#post2468612
CCP Rattati wrote:I remember someone here converting the current scout ewar bonuses to module efficacy quid pro quo. I need that data nao  , because of reasons. What better time to do that change now?
CCP Rattati wrote:So why is everyone thinking Mediums are getting a EWAR buff? I think the Falloff scans are enough to make it viable for a Medium to run one damp/precision/amp just to improve the innermost circle, at least to begin with. Moving to ewar efficacy for scouts will then counter the high native ewar slayer scouts. That's it basically.
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Kierkegaard Soren
THE HANDS OF DEATH
RUST415
559
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Posted - 2014.11.28 19:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
You're correct, of course. The reason this is the case is because scouts and sentinels have been re-worked relatively recently, whereas assaults have only been tweaked and logistics and commandos remain functionally the same since inception save for balance passes. Logis will get (hopefully) three bonuses this next patch, and commandos sometime after that. On a related note, id like the latter to be given a decent magazine and spare ammo buff to help define the suppression role that many of us want them to assume. I'd be willing to lose the damage bonus for it, in fact.
Dedicated Commando.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3656
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Posted - 2014.11.28 21:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Racial Bonus 2: EWAR (or Knife Damage or Stamina) - No Module/Weapon Required
... Pokey Dravon wrote: I find this to be somewhat odd, particularly since the Scouts (...) are particularly favored at the moment. You are not serious if you came to that conclusion.
Yes the Minmatar Scout is the only one that requires something to specifically be equipped in order to get the advantage for one of its bonuses, I was speaking in more general terms so I figured you could understand that much, but yes on that one point you are correct.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Scouts
Role Bonus: Cloak Fitting Bonus - Requires Cloak
Racial Bonus 1: EWAR (or Hacking) - No Module/Weapon Required
Racial Bonus 2: EWAR (or Knife Damage or Stamina) - No Module/Weapon Required
o/ Pokey I'm under the impression that each EWAR bonus is soon to be rewired to point to its respective EWAR module. Basis:
Yes the push for module efficacy over straight bonuses is a good one, though as the CPM pointed out it would be best if we could have that for ALL bonuses as to be fair. Scouts are easy, Sentinels would require resistance mods which would obviously need to be added.
That point aside, I'm also interested in looking at the raw number of bonuses, in that the Assault, Commando, and Logistics seem to be lacking that second racial bonus and I think that is a decent enough argument to at least look at what we can add to them in terms of bonuses to kinda help define their roles a little better and push them up in their usage, since they do seem to be underused at the moment.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
775
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Posted - 2014.11.28 21:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
That point aside, I'm also interested in looking at the raw number of bonuses, in that the Assault, Commando, and Logistics seem to be lacking that second racial bonus and I think that is a decent enough argument to at least look at what we can add to them in terms of bonuses to kinda help define their roles a little better and push them up in their usage, since they do seem to be underused at the moment.
Underutilization is especially exaggerated in the case of the Commando:
http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3656
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Posted - 2014.11.28 22:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
That point aside, I'm also interested in looking at the raw number of bonuses, in that the Assault, Commando, and Logistics seem to be lacking that second racial bonus and I think that is a decent enough argument to at least look at what we can add to them in terms of bonuses to kinda help define their roles a little better and push them up in their usage, since they do seem to be underused at the moment.
Underutilization is especially exaggerated in the case of the Commando: http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php
I would argue this is because the Commando fills the same general role as the Assault but does it poorly. Slower, bigger hitbox, less fitting potential, ect. I'll admit I have much love for the Commando but I use them more out of loyalty than effectiveness in many situations.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
175
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Posted - 2014.11.28 22:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
I would like to comment that the OP is slight incorrect: Sentinel suits now have a heavy weapon fitting bonus, and Assaults also have a fitting bonus on sidearms.
I'd also like to mention that it seems like the Role Bonus is itself suffering some disparity- Sentinels get two bonuses, Assaults get three but really only two at best, and Logis/Scouts/Commandos only have one bonus.
And then we run into the fact that the Scout Role Bonus is effectively useless to newbros, due to how it scales.
I've put up a post to delve into that particular aspect a bit more here.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3657
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Posted - 2014.11.28 23:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:I would like to comment that the OP is slight incorrect: Sentinel suits now have a heavy weapon fitting bonus, and Assaults also have a fitting bonus on sidearms. I'd also like to mention that it seems like the Role Bonus is itself suffering some disparity- Sentinels get two bonuses, Assaults get three but really only two at best, and Logis/Scouts/Commandos only have one bonus. And then we run into the fact that the Scout Role Bonus is effectively useless to newbros, due to how it scales. I've put up a post to delve into that particular aspect a bit more here.
Very fair points, I forgot about those fitting bonuses.
As for Scout Role Bonus, it should really be a +50% reduction naturally and then +5% additional reduction per level.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
178
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Posted - 2014.11.29 01:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Very fair points, I forgot about those fitting bonuses.
As for Scout Role Bonus, it should really be a +50% reduction naturally and then +5% additional reduction per level.
I'm not sure about -50% fixed with a -5%/level bonus; I personally rather favor either a -30% fixed with a -9%/level bonus, or a -40% fixed with a -7%/level bonus.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3661
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Posted - 2014.11.29 01:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Very fair points, I forgot about those fitting bonuses.
As for Scout Role Bonus, it should really be a +50% reduction naturally and then +5% additional reduction per level. I'm not sure about -50% fixed with a -5%/level bonus; I personally rather favor either a -30% fixed with a -9%/level bonus, or a -40% fixed with a -7%/level bonus.
I need to run the numbers again but Im pretty sure you can even really fit a cloak till level 3 or so?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
178
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Posted - 2014.11.29 02:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
IIRC you can barely fit a basic cloak onto a basic suit- it's really tight, but it can be done at L3. At L1 or even L2 it's pretty nearly impossible to do so without gimping the fit.
However, assuming that it is L3 Scout skill, that's an ~45% reduction in fitting requirement- with either of my suggestions, at L1 scout it will be either a 39% reduction or a 47% reduction in the fitting requirements of the cloak. I'd say that both are reasonably close that they offer much greater flexibility at the "newbro" end of the scale, while leaving the higher, veteran-end of the scale relatively untouched.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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