DUST Search - Vehicle Armour Module Balancing Discussion

Sir Dukey wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Sir Dukey wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Bump with two interesting comparisons

The Gunnlogi has
845 CPU
2120 PG

The Madrugar has
475 CPU
2490 PG

The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG
The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG

The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG
The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG

Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns.

The Madrugar has

- 44% less CPU
- 17% more PG
- All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption.

But shield extenders take up a sh*t ton of PG. But I agree, Armor tanks need CPU buff. I literally can't fit sh*t even with a lot of armor skills maxed and fitting skills maxed on my madrugar and that is with a ADV blaster.

Shield Modules actually don't take up much CPU despite appearances. You can very easily fit a full racial tank, prototype turrets, and prototype small turrets since you have ease of access to fitting modules.

I mean the total DPS on one of those things is something like 2300ish.

Actually, they do. I have shield fitting optimization ect. type skills to level 5 and Proto XT-201 missiles with Fitting optimization to level 4 and I meet maximum CPU after I put on a Complex Shield extender,harder, and heavy booster. I almost always instead of using booster,hardener,extender have to switch out one for some other module like damage mod or fuel injector. Now when I get to lows is where I have some versatility with basic armor modules for one slot as long as the other one is either PG or CPU.

I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...

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True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15297	Posted - 2014.12.02 01:09:00 - [31] - Quote Bump with two interesting comparisons The Gunnlogi has 845 CPU 2120 PG The Madrugar has 475 CPU 2490 PG The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns. The Madrugar has - 44% less CPU - 17% more PG - All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
Racro 01 Arifistan 501st Knights of Leanbox 459	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:14:00 - [32] - Quote madruagr fitting complex heavy armour repair complex cpu upgrade enhanced armour hardner complex blaster damge mod enhanced fuel injector ion cannon. gunnlogi fitting complex shield hardner complex blaster damage amplifer enhanced shield booster ehnaced heavy armour reapir basic armour hardner ion cannon. I see a problem here. *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1214	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:17:00 - [33] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: pretty sure you can do like 7-8k with 2 fuel injectors and missiles on a cal tank as well. mixing armor shield and reppers. Uhhhhh...... you can't stack fuel injectors or afterburner modules. Also, on a side note, would moving CPU upgrades to high slots fix the maddy's CPU fitting problems? Just a thought. Are you trying to destroy shield tanks? Literally all my fits have CPU extenders for my gunnlogi. Funny thing is that 90% of drop suits don't have fitting modules but 90% of vehicles do (excluding the militia **** fits) Chocolate Juice
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1214	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:20:00 - [34] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Bump with two interesting comparisons The Gunnlogi has 845 CPU 2120 PG The Madrugar has 475 CPU 2490 PG The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns. The Madrugar has - 44% less CPU - 17% more PG - All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption. But shield extenders take up a sht ton of PG. But I agree, Armor tanks need CPU buff. I literally can't fit sht even with a lot of armor skills maxed and fitting skills maxed on my madrugar and that is with a ADV blaster. Chocolate Juice
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15302	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:22:00 - [35] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: True Adamance wrote: Bump with two interesting comparisons The Gunnlogi has 845 CPU 2120 PG The Madrugar has 475 CPU 2490 PG The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns. The Madrugar has - 44% less CPU - 17% more PG - All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption. But shield extenders take up a sht ton of PG. But I agree, Armor tanks need CPU buff. I literally can't fit sht even with a lot of armor skills maxed and fitting skills maxed on my madrugar and that is with a ADV blaster. Shield Modules actually don't take up much CPU despite appearances. You can very easily fit a full racial tank, prototype turrets, and prototype small turrets since you have ease of access to fitting modules. I mean the total DPS on one of those things is something like 2300ish. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1214	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:27:00 - [36] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Nothing? Not a word of acknowledgement that something is distinctly wrong here? Bluntly HAVs can have marauder values as far as I'm concerned if I can have Chromosome AV values back No tanker likes vehicles right now. Everybody and their mother has same fits and SP doesn't do any good after a certain point. Chocolate Juice
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1214	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:32:00 - [37] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: True Adamance wrote: Bump with two interesting comparisons The Gunnlogi has 845 CPU 2120 PG The Madrugar has 475 CPU 2490 PG The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns. The Madrugar has - 44% less CPU - 17% more PG - All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption. But shield extenders take up a sht ton of PG. But I agree, Armor tanks need CPU buff. I literally can't fit sht even with a lot of armor skills maxed and fitting skills maxed on my madrugar and that is with a ADV blaster. Shield Modules actually don't take up much CPU despite appearances. You can very easily fit a full racial tank, prototype turrets, and prototype small turrets since you have ease of access to fitting modules. I mean the total DPS on one of those things is something like 2300ish. Actually, they do. I have shield fitting optimization ect. type skills to level 5 and Proto XT-201 missiles with Fitting optimization to level 4 and I meet maximum CPU after I put on a Complex Shield extender,harder, and heavy booster. I almost always instead of using booster,hardener,extender have to switch out one for some other module like damage mod or fuel injector. Now when I get to lows is where I have some versatility with basic armor modules for one slot as long as the other one is either PG or CPU. Chocolate Juice
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1214	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:35:00 - [38] - Quote BTW... 60mm plates need fixing on that CPU, the take up close to as much as 120mm plates. Chocolate Juice
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15303	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:37:00 - [39] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: True Adamance wrote: Bump with two interesting comparisons The Gunnlogi has 845 CPU 2120 PG The Madrugar has 475 CPU 2490 PG The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns. The Madrugar has - 44% less CPU - 17% more PG - All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption. But shield extenders take up a sht ton of PG. But I agree, Armor tanks need CPU buff. I literally can't fit sht even with a lot of armor skills maxed and fitting skills maxed on my madrugar and that is with a ADV blaster. Shield Modules actually don't take up much CPU despite appearances. You can very easily fit a full racial tank, prototype turrets, and prototype small turrets since you have ease of access to fitting modules. I mean the total DPS on one of those things is something like 2300ish. Actually, they do. I have shield fitting optimization ect. type skills to level 5 and Proto XT-201 missiles with Fitting optimization to level 4 and I meet maximum CPU after I put on a Complex Shield extender,harder, and heavy booster. I almost always instead of using booster,hardener,extender have to switch out one for some other module like damage mod or fuel injector. Now when I get to lows is where I have some versatility with basic armor modules for one slot as long as the other one is either PG or CPU. That's my point. Shield HAV should not have the capacity to ALSO armour tank. Their fitting skills are too high and need rebalancing to bring them down to acceptable EHP values for what they are. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 95	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:01:00 - [40] - Quote Ok...so the hulls are imbalanced...what about the modules? Let's take a look at the Complex HSE vs the Complex 120 mm Plate The Complex Heavy Shield Extender gives us 1325 shield hit points for the cost of 264 CPU and 587 PGU with a 7% shield depleted recharge delay penalty. This means that we have: 5.02 HP/CPU 2.26 HP/PGU The Complex 120 MM Plate gives us 1885 armor hit points for the cost of 126 CPU and 896 PGU with a 10% penalty to acceleration and movement speed. This gives us: 14.96 HP/CPU 2.10 HP/PGU not really sure where I'm going with this...probably going to do a comparison to the Space-Side things (using frigates) but it's a little weird to compare caldari ships (which are usually either bricks or kiters) to gallente ships (who at the frigate scale are almost exclusively nano-tankers) I might need to go through more comparisons with the Amarr and Minmatar ships as well Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15319	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:08:00 - [41] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Ok...so the hulls are imbalanced...what about the modules? Let's take a look at the Complex HSE vs the Complex 120 mm Plate The Complex Heavy Shield Extender gives us 1325 shield hit points for the cost of 264 CPU and 587 PGU with a 7% shield depleted recharge delay penalty. This means that we have: 5.02 HP/CPU 2.26 HP/PGU The Complex 120 MM Plate gives us 1885 armor hit points for the cost of 126 CPU and 896 PGU with a 10% penalty to acceleration and movement speed. This gives us: 14.96 HP/CPU 2.10 HP/PGU not really sure where I'm going with this...probably going to do a comparison to the Space-Side things (using frigates) but it's a little weird to compare caldari ships (which are usually either bricks or kiters) to gallente ships (who at the frigate scale are almost exclusively nano-tankers) I might need to go through more comparisons with the Amarr and Minmatar ships as well Bear in mind though shields currently have a passive regenerative ability that outstrips Armour repairers without having to use a module slot. While this may not matter in direct close quarters combat, at long range and vs AV this amounts to a significant advantage. Basically on a competitive tank fit I can achieve greater EHP values and have comparable repair values (outside of short ranged combat) due to natural resistances to primary AV forms and 15% more efficient hardener modules. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 150	Posted - 2014.12.02 13:22:00 - [42] - Quote 1. Wouldnt be much of a problem if we had basic core skills such i dont know how about 5% PG/CPU per level for the engineering and electronics skill books
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2415	Posted - 2014.12.02 18:51:00 - [43] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: pretty sure you can do like 7-8k with 2 fuel injectors and missiles on a cal tank as well. mixing armor shield and reppers. What are you talking about 2 fuel injectors? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15331	Posted - 2014.12.02 19:57:00 - [44] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Wouldnt be much of a problem if we had basic core skills such i dont know how about 5% PG/CPU per level for the engineering and electronics skill books That could certainly help mitigate some fitting issues but it doesn't addess the benefits the Shield HAV would recieve over the armour HAV and make the PG and CPU accessibility in the lows redundant only further encouraging the use of Armour modules. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 156	Posted - 2014.12.03 14:38:00 - [45] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Wouldnt be much of a problem if we had basic core skills such i dont know how about 5% PG/CPU per level for the engineering and electronics skill books That could certainly help mitigate some fitting issues but it doesn't addess the benefits the Shield HAV would recieve over the armour HAV and make the PG and CPU accessibility in the lows redundant only further encouraging the use of Armour modules. 1. The PG/CPU modules have always been low slot, this is not a problem 2. The main problem will always be the small amount of CPU they give to the Madrugar, the base skills would help at a minimum, i would say bring them back and if it is still hard to fit up a decent armor tank compared to shield then look again 3. The difference in Armor and Shield are also bigger this time around due to 1.7 vehicle shake up where it was a mass clear out of everything fun and useful, back in chrome armor was king but a few tweeks and changes and shield would have been on par
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15396	Posted - 2014.12.03 20:40:00 - [46] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: True Adamance wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Wouldnt be much of a problem if we had basic core skills such i dont know how about 5% PG/CPU per level for the engineering and electronics skill books That could certainly help mitigate some fitting issues but it doesn't addess the benefits the Shield HAV would recieve over the armour HAV and make the PG and CPU accessibility in the lows redundant only further encouraging the use of Armour modules. 1. The PG/CPU modules have always been low slot, this is not a problem 2. The main problem will always be the small amount of CPU they give to the Madrugar, the base skills would help at a minimum, i would say bring them back and if it is still hard to fit up a decent armor tank compared to shield then look again 3. The difference in Armor and Shield are also bigger this time around due to 1.7 vehicle shake up where it was a mass clear out of everything fun and useful, back in chrome armor was king but a few tweeks and changes and shield would have been on par 1.) I can accept that but coupling nearly twice the CPU and a comparable PG value with the additional capacity to fit such modules is poor balance indeed. 2.) Indeed I spoke with Arkena and Sgt Kirk yesterday evening about it and on my fits I cannot even fit comparably tiered modules, turrets, and high 3.) Very true however I believe that Shield tanking can remain viable under its current modules , sans of course the 168 passive pulsed reps, while armour can be restored with a return to the 180mm plates, active reppers, and a buff of armour hardeners to 30%. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 96	Posted - 2014.12.03 22:59:00 - [47] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Ok...so the hulls are imbalanced...what about the modules? Let's take a look at the Complex HSE vs the Complex 120 mm Plate The Complex Heavy Shield Extender gives us 1325 shield hit points for the cost of 264 CPU and 587 PGU with a 7% shield depleted recharge delay penalty. This means that we have: 5.02 HP/CPU 2.26 HP/PGU The Complex 120 MM Plate gives us 1885 armor hit points for the cost of 126 CPU and 896 PGU with a 10% penalty to acceleration and movement speed. This gives us: 14.96 HP/CPU 2.10 HP/PGU Ok, time to do the numbers on the space side modules, I chose to do the largest shield extenders and two largest armor plates (comparing the Tech II Versions). I will also being adding in another category PGU/CPU who's importance I'll get to later. Complex Hard Shield Extender - 2.22 PGU/CPU Complex 120mm Plate - 7.11 PGU/CPU Large Shield Extender II gives a ship 2625 shield hit points for the cost of 46 CPU and 165 PGU with a penalty of 25m Signature Radius (For those of you who don't know, signature radius works both for the time to lock onto a target in eve, as well as being used as one of the factors to determine quality of a hit, so heavy shield buffers take less time to lock onto and are easier to hit). This Module Has: 57.07 HP/CPU 15.91 HP/PGU 3.59 PGU/CPU The 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II (Yes I know rolled tungsten are just better) gives a ship 4800 Armor HP for the cost of 33 CPU and 575 PGU with a Mass addition of 3.75 Gigagrams (Mass determines acceleration making an armor tanked ship more sluggish in combat, and therefore easier to hit since it has a harder time outpacing turret tracking, but also making it easier to catch up with the ship). This Module Has: 145.45 HP/CPU 8.35 HP/PGU 17.42 PGU/CPU The 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II gives a ship 2400 Armor HP for the cost of 28 CPU and 230 PGU with a Mass Addition of 1.5 Gigagrams. This Module has: 85.71 HP/CPU 10.43 HP/PGU 8.21 PGU/CPU Now the actual sizes of the numbers are irrelevant here (as we're dealing on a different scale) what is important is their relative sizes. I know Eve informs DUST Design, not dictates, but I'm using these numbers to try to help people draw comparisons in the modules (or maybe I'm just muddying the issue with needless numbers, if I am I'm sorry). Later I'll try to get the relative fitting amounts of ships in eve, but anyone have an idea of which class of ship to reference? I was thinking T1 Combat Cruisers. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.


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