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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3600
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Posted - 2014.11.26 01:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well first of all you're spot on with the Madrugar's lack of fitting resources. All too often my Madrugar fits have unfilled Highs because I'm completely out of resources from trying to fit what I feel is a satisfactory armor defense. Whereas on my Gunnlogi I can fit basically whatever I want and then have resources left over to stick armor plates, utility mods, ect in my lows.
Secondly I think shield and armor is in a very weird place for vehicles right now. Shields naturally have the recharge rate which is a defining feature of the tanking style, in that (aside from a delay) the shields come back on their own at a steady rate. However their modules lend to a more burst tanking style, such as shield boosters having a large, single pulse of HP. So Shields are both a slow passive tank, as well as a high resist bursty tank.
Armor on the other hand? It's easy to throw out the buzzphrase "stand and deliver" but what does that really mean? Ok it reps even while under fire, but how should those reps compare to the natural recharge of shields? Intuition lends to the answer being "more than shield regen" but by how much? If its too close to shields then shields are still superior due to the possibility of burst tanking. If its too high then you end up with unkillable rep armor tanks. So I guess my question to the community is, what is the proper ratio? Where does armor fit in in the grand scheme of vehicle tanking?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3606
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Posted - 2014.11.26 04:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well first of all you're spot on with the Madrugar's lack of fitting resources. All too often my Madrugar fits have unfilled Highs because I'm completely out of resources from trying to fit what I feel is a satisfactory armor defense. Whereas on my Gunnlogi I can fit basically whatever I want and then have resources left over to stick armor plates, utility mods, ect in my lows.
Secondly I think shield and armor is in a very weird place for vehicles right now. Shields naturally have the recharge rate which is a defining feature of the tanking style, in that (aside from a delay) the shields come back on their own at a steady rate. However their modules lend to a more burst tanking style, such as shield boosters having a large, single pulse of HP. So Shields are both a slow passive tank, as well as a high resist bursty tank.
Armor on the other hand? It's easy to throw out the buzzphrase "stand and deliver" but what does that really mean? Ok it reps even while under fire, but how should those reps compare to the natural recharge of shields? Intuition lends to the answer being "more than shield regen" but by how much? If its too close to shields then shields are still superior due to the possibility of burst tanking. If its too high then you end up with unkillable rep armor tanks. So I guess my question to the community is, what is the proper ratio? Where does armor fit in in the grand scheme of vehicle tanking? Spot on as usual. I have noticed that in the current meta the Gunlogi can stand and deliver better than a Madrugar due to better fitting capacity and superior EHP.
Well because the passive recharge is so good on the Gunnlogi, you can basically fit 2 hardeners and an extender, which means either more hardener uptime than a Madrugar, or double hardened which gets such insane resistances that yes...it stands and delivers via sheer eHP.
Honestly the balance between armor and shield was so much better when HAVs had 5 Main and 2-3 Secondary slots...
I'm almost wondering if shields are fine as is but armor needs to move to a massive amount of HP with slower repair..
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3607
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Posted - 2014.11.26 05:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Derrith Erador wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:pretty sure you can do like 7-8k with 2 fuel injectors and missiles on a cal tank as well.
mixing armor shield and reppers. Uhhhhh...... you can't stack fuel injectors or afterburner modules. Also, on a side note, would moving CPU upgrades to high slots fix the maddy's CPU fitting problems? Just a thought.
Initially the spreadsheets CCP put out had CPU Upgrade as a high slot module, and yes it would probably help.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3625
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Posted - 2014.11.26 21:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think the fact that you can fit armor plates of any sizable amount on a Shitca/Gunnlogi is a damn crime since you can't do the same with shields on a Soma/Madrugar. That's a glaring issue right there.
I mean let's just take a typical look at the main rack you're gong to see on a Shield vs Armor HAV
Shield 2 Hardeners 1 Extender
Armor 1 Hardener 1 Plate 1 Repairer
Now, the Shield extender is less HP than the Armor Plate, but not by a huge margin. And again you have a shield hardener giving less benefit than an armor hardener, but you have 2 of them which pushes its eHP significantly above that of the armor tank, even with the lesser resist and buffer.
I guess it comes down to, ok shield tanks, you get natural reps (and really good ones at that) without the need of a module to do so. If that's the case, even if armor reps remain comparable to natural shield regen, that armor HAV *must* have more eHP than the shield vehicle. I mean hell look at a typical Caldari Sentinel fit vs an Amarr Sentinel fit. The Caldari tends to be more focused around short delays and fast regen instead of stacking nothing but extenders, whereas most Amarr Sentinels stack on 3-4 plates and have insanely higher HP.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3625
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Posted - 2014.11.26 21:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
And there is only one viable Madrugar fits sans maybe some minor variation with utility.
Ohh thats right, they do give more, not sure what I was thinking. So yeah, Shield tanks get 2 40% hardeners and Armor gets 1 25%. That sounds perfectly reasonable What do the eHP values come out to if you flip those resistance percentages? 25% for shield and 40% for armor?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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