DUST Search - equipment spam and my solution.

All Channels

Feedback/Requests

equipment spam and my solution.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:34:00 - [1] - Quote smh I really don't want to lend support to the lunatic fringe... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:38:00 - [2] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: most all logi cannot fit a mostly proto tank AND proto equipment and proto weapon.. Why do you need all three? Better question may be Why Don't We Deserve The Ability to Use All Three? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:49:00 - [3] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: No system is perfect, everyone will have to make some kind of sacrifice in order to limit EQ spam. This way, IMO, impacts everyone except logi's far more than it does logi's. This topic has been the central point of debate at least 3-4 times in this game's history, and I've been fighting proposals that had huge potential to nerf logi's every time. This is unquestionably the best proposal I've yet seen that will both: A) Work B) Be a lot harder on non-logi's than on logis. BTW, this one is arguably my favorite: John Demonsbane wrote: A word of warning if you are thinking about reading the linked thread: ItGÇÖs 18 pages long. If you donGÇÖt have an hour or so to go through it, allow me to summarize for you: OP: Someone who went 1/17 topped the leaderboard. WTH? The only way anyone should get WP is by shooting someone with an AR. Pew pew! Like, everyone else: ItGÇÖs called strategy. You should try it sometime. OP: Strategery? Never heard of it. These GÇ£logisticsGÇ¥ players you speak of, do they spend time doing anything besides shoot an AR? If so, they are leeches who steal WP from people like me who are more awesome than everyone else. They just run around with their eyes closed dropping equipment in completely random locations with no thought involved. Everyone else: YouGÇÖre an idiot. Have fun spawning from the MCC every time and running all the way across these huge new maps. You may also find it rather difficult shooting a gun with no ammo. OP: You are all trolls. My logic is unassailable, and only killing requires skill. Logis donGÇÖt do anything but spam equipment that they donGÇÖt need to spend SP or ISK on and take no risks. Me: If the guy youGÇÖre referencing died 17 times, sounds like he took some risk. OP: No, you guys are all haxx0rs taking advantage of a bug that lets you change suits at supply depots and get unlimited equipment for free. Nobody else ever uses supply depots to their advantage so this is clearly a logistics scam. Everyone else: No, thatGÇÖs how supply depots work. OP: No, youGÇÖre wrong Everyone: No, youGÇÖre wrong OP: YouGÇÖre a troll Everyone: No, you are! OP: No, you are! (repeat for 15 more pages) I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:48:00 - [4] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:26:00 - [5] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:46:00 - [6] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. [/quote] Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion)[/quote] So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:10:00 - [7] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. [/quote] Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.[/quote] Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:21:00 - [8] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Not everything in here has to work exactly like EVE. If EVE mechanics were that great after all this time that game would be way bigger, not to knock EVE but jus' sayin'. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 534	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:56:00 - [9] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough. Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. [/quote] How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)[/quote] Sorry bud, I'm willing to show you where to look, but I'm not going to do your homework for you. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171586&find=unread That is the thread. Frankly, if you're not familiar with all the changes going on right now with regards to Logistics as a class and Logistics as gameplay on behalf of the Logistics Community I'd appreciate your not coming partway in on a lengthy conversation (check those dates) and making statements regarding accuracy, evidence or frivolity. Its counter-logocal and counter productive. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:28:00 - [10] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. So, one, how is that "largely" agreed upon, exactly? By whom.. You and the OP? As for that fool Athena, what victory? Never got what she wanted, and still won't. I can still swap at a supply depot to switch from an uplink suit to a medic suit, or even a nanohive suit, provided I don't need (not want) more than 8 pieces of EQ out, which I rarely do. This is basically the last time I'm going to respond to one of your posts on the subject of BW because it's simply not getting anywhere. Amarrian God as my witness, I honestly don't think you have the slightest clue how this system really works and what it's intended to do. I am not trolling in any way when I say that. Your comments about me not understanding the point of my own post, or this being a buff to scouts somehow, for example, simply defy logic. Bandwith is not a fcking buff to scouts, that makes exactly zero sense. It's not a major buff to logis either, but, stay with me here, thats not the purpose of it. The purpose is to limit EQ spam as much as possible while limiting the impact on dedicated logis as much as possible.* To put it another way, BANDWITH NERFS EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO DROP EQUIPMENT. IT NERFS LOGIS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TOTALLY FIX LOGIS HERE WITH THIS ONE THING AND STOP THERE. The major buffs to logis are still needed, still on the table, and are not directly related to this in any way. Tell you what, give me a better proposal. Come up with an actual proposal specifically designed to reduce spam.: - Not some nebulous combination of things we've been talking about in Cross' thread. - Not buffing logis in a way unrelated to equipment. Focus man! - Not nerfing scouts in a way unrelated to equipment (your scout rage is clouding your judgement, tbh) - Not solo orbitals - Not the radius thing which, yes, is a great idea, which is why I've suggested it 83 times, but you can claim to be whatever amazing coding guru you want, if the developers of the damn game specifically say they can't do it, I'm gonna drop it and move on to something that can actually be done.\ - Not some pie in the sky idea that's not practical - and for the love of God not a blanket restriction of x number of peices of equipment on everyone. Anyone who thinks that's a better solution from the logi perspective should be immediately sterilized as for the good of the human race they should not be allowed to pass on their DNA. Do not mention any of those things, give me a better way to do it that's feasible, will work, and have much less effect on people in logi suits than everyone else. Do that and I'll stop supporting BW and promote yours. lol, you might want to go read that thread again bruv, it is literally 18 pages of old pro's (damn I miss DS10) saying suit swapping on the logi side is A-OK. Logibro I believe is in there too. You've already seen my input on getting Logistics (and opportunity spam) away from tourists in the support thread, but to recap -Logistics becomes Dropsuit Command level 5 for entry. If we really want to seal the deal on only allowing the serious in, make Electronics and Engineering level 3 entry requirements as well. -Enact equipment timers. That link/hive cluster doesn't actually get used within say, 7 minutes of placement its capacitor dies. -Enact equipment placement boundaries. I understand you accept the line coders can't make it happen but I don't. Especially since the most recent gamecode doesn't allow me to call in a vehicle within clear and open areas of the cities when before I could. Its a glitch, I understand. Find that glitch, fix it for vehicles and then apply it to depots. -Scouts lose the second equipment slot. You know where I'm at with that, its been my original idea for balance for a while but been poopoo'd, maybe now in light of all the rest of the hubbub you'll recognize that if anyone should have a limit on deploying equipment it shouldn't be a frame whose main purpose is deployment and use of equipment. -Suit switching limits applied to depots. Sorry bro, there's only so many times you can switch here within x amount of time . Come back later. -Overhead map a total clusterfuck of aquamarine interfering with your ability to see where spawns are vs. hives or consoles? Change the damn colors. -Oh and Cross' idea about revamping equipment use quantities vs carried. One out of health and out of ammo merc running past that depot would use most everything there. -Solo OBs, EMP configured that are cheap, easy and permeate the walls. You see a pile of gear, nuke it. For 100 WP. Is that 5? 7? Literally pulled from my immediate memory of these things, and all will address spam just as much as the current with none (maybe one or two) having the sort of overarching ill-effects BW will. And a word about scouts: I am NOT a scout-hater. I am an IMBALANCE hater. scouts are imbalanced and have been for a looong time. Too long, in fact. And if they're fixed in place stat-wise, never to be adjusted again then serious buffs need to be afforded to ALL other classes to counter the imbalance. And they need to STOP their interference of those processes. I said it then and I'll say it again It IS DISGUSTING that they would do so. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:31:00 - [11] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that That good sir is called opportunity cost and is very much a part of tactical game play. Choosing how to invest your limited resources in a synergistic manner that best supports your plan of action is, for my 0.02 ISK, exactly what competitive game modes like PC should require of their teams and team leaders. If the choices or trade offs were easy/consequence free they would lack substance and relevance. Top level PC is full of everybody running, placing and destroying links. Mainly since scouts are spammed (HARD) and scout-logi ability is allowed to be a "thing". Oh, and it'll just be worse if the equipment profile stuff happens since scouts will see all, and can run/jump into areas inaccessible to everyone else, some corners OB proof included. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:42:00 - [12] - Quote Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:02:00 - [13] - Quote One more (since I went and did something else and thought of it): -Since we can't code in an inability to deploy equipment around depots how about coding an inability to bring up the equipment menu while in proximity of a depot? Could the coders handle that? Since they can handle (apparently) coding in BW and making sure the numbers always work, like Amarr Logi uplink bonuses? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:06:00 - [14] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Not everything in here has to work exactly like EVE. If EVE mechanics were that great after all this time that game would be way bigger, not to knock EVE but jus' sayin'. I agree that not everything has to work like EVE. Which is why I love the way CCP Rattati wants to do it. My point was that if they were to implement an activation/reactivation mechanic because it was more like EVE, then you'd have to manually reactivate stuff. Cool, I get that. I just cringe when people point at EVE sometimes and insist what happens here mechanically should automatically be identical to how it works there mechanically. I actually kinda like the deactivation/reactivation element and think it could allow for some creative expansion of the reptool's ability, maybe as the device used to reactivate dormant gear OR hack dormant equipment from the enemy side. Could be cool. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 03:52:00 - [15] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that That good sir is called opportunity cost and is very much a part of tactical game play. Choosing how to invest your limited resources in a synergistic manner that best supports your plan of action is, for my 0.02 ISK, exactly what competitive game modes like PC should require of their teams and team leaders. If the choices or trade offs were easy/consequence free they would lack substance and relevance. pc isnt competative, its just an isk farm propped up by mule corps to block other corps hitting the parent corp. competative would be bringing back Corp vs Corp but as there is too muck isk flow from pubs+PC and FW isnt stemming that tide CvC would have to have no isk payouts.. but perhaps a FW style salvage system.. and can be played at anytime when 2 corps decide to Epeen joust to see whos got the bigger D*** and/or bankroll.. as incentive maybe have the corp gain/lose ranks for win/lose.. and maybe have prizes for those who are in the top 3.. like bronze silver and gold.. each "season" is 1 month long. and corps cannot bring in "ringers" unless they have been a member of the corp for atleast a full season and/or joins the corp before the next season to actually count for that corp.. this could open a market for actually hireing players for a month to fight for the corp.. bringing some "mercenary" aspect to the players pfffft... You can quit that bit right there. PC is competitive as hell, the player population is low more than anything else because pubstar scrubcorps try it and get utterly squashed by actual true protos and then are scared of actually ever competing. This is not a statement against a reintroduction of Corp Battles in some form, but the crap about PC not being competitive and just being an isk farm is bs, as anyone who actually competes knows. Yeah, there's bs corps set up as and for constant farms but thats not PC. Thats farming. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 538	Posted - 2014.11.22 04:01:00 - [16] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Well, considering that, instead of an actual proposal for EQ spam, you repeated the same off-topic ideas I predicted you would, I think I'm good. It's too bad you wouldn't rather take this idea and improve upon it with ones that actually have some merit in exploring, like the reviving EQ with reptools concept. Instead you dismiss it out of hand, propose fixes to unrelated things, or perseverate on solutions that are not workable. Speaking of which, if you'd like to sit there with your fingers in your ears yelling "lalalala I can't hear you" until CCP Glinda finally admits that, yes Dorothy, we had the power all along, we just didn't want to make the three mouse clicks necessary to enact the installation radius thing, we were just trolling... you go ahead and do that. I'm moving on to find something we can fix. Actually there're several on-topics there and all are relevent in fashion or another. I'm not plugging my ears bro, I hear whats coming loud and clear and don't like it, hence my constant drumbeat of "BW will suck". I've stated my why and how and so far I haven't heard much about those from you except variants of, " I like it so you should too". CCP Glinda I'm sure is the same hook that spent weeks saying, "No No Theres no way to create any sort of sliding sensitivity for profile across range" but hell if there ain't a recent thread that says, "Well, actually we can now we just didn't know how before" and explains that it was intentionally kept quiet. There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic..... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 538	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:06:00 - [17] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Well, considering that, instead of an actual proposal for EQ spam, you repeated the same off-topic ideas I predicted you would, I think I'm good. It's too bad you wouldn't rather take this idea and improve upon it with ones that actually have some merit in exploring, like the reviving EQ with reptools concept. Instead you dismiss it out of hand, propose fixes to unrelated things, or perseverate on solutions that are not workable. Speaking of which, if you'd like to sit there with your fingers in your ears yelling "lalalala I can't hear you" until CCP Glinda finally admits that, yes Dorothy, we had the power all along, we just didn't want to make the three mouse clicks necessary to enact the installation radius thing, we were just trolling... you go ahead and do that. I'm moving on to find something we can fix. Actually there're several on-topics there and all are relevent in fashion or another. I'm not plugging my ears bro, I hear whats coming loud and clear and don't like it, hence my constant drumbeat of "BW will suck". I've stated my why and how and so far I haven't heard much about those from you except variants of, " I like it so you should too". CCP Glinda I'm sure is the same hook that spent weeks saying, "No No Theres no way to create any sort of sliding sensitivity for profile across range" but hell if there ain't a recent thread that says, "Well, actually we can now we just didn't know how before" and explains that it was intentionally kept quiet. There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic..... You haven't said **** except I don't like it cuz it doesn't let people switch suits. Seriously if its on topic post it here don't expect people to go crawling through a 59 page thread and then saying oh well pfft if you don't know that's your problem. It is your responsibility to present your arguments here if you have them otherwise you are doing just as jhon says you are. Ohhh dude, I'm so sorry. First and foremost^ I'm not ignoring you (or anyone else), I've been at work this entire time doing work, then reading what I can and posting where I can, and am right now literally in the car to go home doing this since I've realized I never responded to you. Don't mistake the "banter" between John and I, its actually been going for quite awhile here and there. That thread I referred you to has some of it. Second, this isn't actually the thread for my explaining my self, it's Apoth's for him to explain his self and his classic Apoth TMZ title. John and I have been going back and forth in here and other threads, mostly on the BW topic. That being said, hopefully he doesn't mind if I do threadjack a little bit for a minute. The thread for BW feedback we know where it is and my feedback is there too. In response to your points tho: 1. No, of course I do not think only Logis should be discussing the issue of equipment spam. It's everyones problem, and the solutions to it should really work for everyone. I did ask that you read the Logi/Support thread, which if you do you'll see that I am a minority voice in there that it too is not Logi exclusive, so that it could put some context to my BW comments which you labeled as, "frivolous" rather out of hand. 2. Equipment spam needs a solution, yes, however that certain types of Logistical play should be the sacrificial payment for that solution is something I don't agree with. It isn't just a matter of switching suits. SPAM is the problem, not switching suits, SPAM should be what gets eliminated, NOT switching suits. There are other ideas for doing this in these very forums (hell I listed a bunch for John earlier) that wouldn't cost gameplay outside of eliminating perpetual damn SPAM! I DO NOT buy this brand of thinking that says, Well it nerfs everyone but nerfs me the least so its a great idea. Thats not ke, thats not who I am, not where I'm from. I BELIEVE Rattati and CCP can find another way unless they think that everyone is okay with THIS way. I am NOT okay with this way, and I am NOT alone. 3. About frivolity. Frivolity is a matter of perspective. You said you're a scout and would love to have your ewar when cloaked back and an extension on the decloaking animation. I, personally, consider the decloaking animation frivolous because I don't give two ***** about cloaks. Cloaks are fun, cloaks are cool, I am NOT skurred about fighting cloaked enemies. That's my perspective and why, on a topic you probably don't consider frivolous at all especially since in recent weeks you've borne the brunt of adjustments to it because of people QQing about it. Perspective is why I referred you to the Logi/Support thread, so you could read for yourself whats been going on now about reworking Logis for weeks and get some perspective as to where my utter disdain for BW is coming from, since its coming at tye same time as a whole bunch of other ideas very few of which I see as being beneficial enough for Logistics play! 4. I will add a 4th too, about Logistics play. There is a rampant school of thought that Logis belong anchored to heavies keeping beams on them, feeding them ammo and when they die, if they ask, reviving them. I do not attend this school. I am very effective at its techniques, top-caliber PC proven against PC teams NO ONE wanted to challenge, but do not come from that school. Limits? damn, ok page 2 inbound... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 538	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:32:00 - [18] - Quote ok, 4 cont. I am an understudy of Sun Tzu's School of Upholstery. Specifically a student and practitioner of "Holding Down the Pillow". Here, in DUST, that means that while yes, I am absolutley committed to supporting my corpmate fatties and everyone else in my squad and team, I also am constantly engaged in Logistically ensuring that squad and team can keep control of the areas we want. Sometimes that does mean leaving my heavies with some hives to keep them warm, and trotting off to plant a minefield so tanks don't just barrell right in on us or another squad, setting a link/hive set for another group to spawn etc. This sort of thing is Team Support facilitated by Map Control through Tactical Combat Logistics work . It isn't easy, or a huge WP farm which is why not too many people do it. And the particulars of it change every match, depending on what sorts of opposition we face. And as the enemies adapt to overcome, I adapt to overcome. This methodology is why I am one of the few people rarely trapped behind a redline, and when the random skirm I'm in has my blueberries trapped I can get them out (sometimes. It is warfare after all, and there's little accounting for classic lack of wherewithal, mine or the blues) This methodology, while as adaptable as I am and am willing to be, will be seriously negatively impacted by BW limitations. That seriously negatively impacts what drew me HARD to this game in the first place, the Field Strategy aspect and the available tools to execute. I'm all for limiting SPAM, I hate to limit playstyle too, yes, admittedly, especially, part of mine . And before you rant at me a tirade of accusations that I hate scouts, I DON'T. I HATE the imbalanced nature of some of your base stats and that any idea to compensate is the end of the world for scouting, just like I hate that any "buff" to logis will suddenly spawn slayerlogis everywhere. BW, btw, IMO WILL bring back slayerlogi gameplay, since once those deployables are out, to preserve their effects, MANY members of my class will be donning their Tank Gank n Speed fits, Damage Mods piled, and start ripping through the unaware. We've been combat gimped for a long time and actively playing nice. When theres nothing left to do but gun though, they'll be out and they'll be blazing. okay, I'm done, again I apologise for not responding earlier. Don't take it personally. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.22 22:50:00 - [19] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: BTW, what's a tourist logi? Is it the same as a tourist scout, who was always running assault and now switches to scout when the enemy uses this fit? Or is it the same as a tourist heavy, who is also an assault, that get's his arse handed over to him by Sents and then thinks oh lets switch to a heavy frame...? This is just a rediculous discussion, that will NOT SOLVE THE SPAMMING PROBLEM WHATSOEVER! If you deny one role the strategic possibility of switching to another role, than its NOT BALANCED. If Logis loose deployed stuff when switching suits, NO OTHER SUIT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE CERTAIN EQUIPMENT PERIOD! Tourist logi: logi spawns in, drops eq spam, switches to sentinal at depot, plays sentinal while cashing in wp for eqs If you start arbitrarily limiting eq to suits we may as well be playing a crappy version of battlefield. BW kicks in, tactically map-wise we will be playing BF. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.