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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
972
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Posted - 2014.11.17 20:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:So in essence, you're complaining because you couldn't kill your hard counter by flying straight at him.
As much as that is a fairly reasonable statement, the implication is that you can do your role by strafing. Which is a bold faced lie.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
972
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Posted - 2014.11.18 04:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Well your first problem, is that for some strange reason you decided that it would be a good idea to engage an AVer who's clearly prepared to engage you.
Well, considering that an ADS is supposed to perform strafing runs, and also considering that strafes are entirely untenable at the moment...how else would you suggest engaging them? 'Hard' counter or not, nothing is this game can't fight its nemesis; except swarm launchers (ironically) though we know that they cannot engage infantry because show OP it was back in beta.
So, without the ability to do what we're supposed to do, how are we supposed to engage anything even vaguely aware of our presence?
Atiim wrote:You're on crack. Before Uprising 1.7, a Swarm Launcher could kill ANY vehicle in DUST other than an LLAV by simply looking at it. You could have the best fit in DUST and it would still go down in flames if you didn't have an LLAV or other vehicle repping you.
Now? Any ADS with common sense and the ability to resist the urge to consume cheese curls and soda whilst flying can evade a Swarm Launcher provided that your fit isn't garbage.
Yep, back with 400m swarms, vehicles were utterly pointless.
By evade, I'm going to assume you mean escape (since actual evasion of swarm missiles is nigh impossible) which is still a pretty steep statement to make. At Op3 I can have all three volleys in the air by the time the first volley hits; the ease of application of swarms make flight mandatory the moment you come under fire.
Atiim wrote:It doesn't take skill to aim with an ADS either, as you aren't actually aiming the turret but rotating the ADS to align the reticule in a position where it will hit the target.
That in mind, the skill of operating an ADS is that of movement, not aim. Given how using a SL against a vehicle requires that you can strafe and evade their fire, it also requires movement skill as opposed to traditional aiming.
Um..seriously? Simply moving in a dropship requires more skill than operating a swarm launcher at all. Every single touch of the sticks requires constant monitoring and in a fight the dropship requires moment stop moment readjustment simply to remain aloft.
The Swarmer...simply doesn't. The only facet of skill the Swarmer requires is knowing when to fire and the extremely ridiculous 'strafing herp-derp gun gamr' that plagues this game.
Let me ask you a question: does a Mass Driver, Flaylock or Plasma Cannon require skill to use? If so, the missile turret needs skill - less than any of those mentioned, due to high damage output, but still inordinately more than any Swarm Launcher.
Atiim wrote:That aside, if you're killed by any Swarmer with a minor SP investment, you need to stop operating an ADS.\
edit: That's not to say however, that landing hits with an ADS doesn't require skill. However, the skill it requires is not actual aiming, but instead maneuvering.
Considering that the turret still has to deal with Y-axis aiming and that the X-axis is still more than simply 'manoeuvring' like you seem to make out, not to mention the anticipation of motion that requires you to learn your target.
The swarm has a lock on box that takes up about 75% of the screen and requires minimal adjustment, and only the most up-close and extreme dropship movements will cause any possible lock-on issues.
Atiim, your assertions that swarms require even vaguely as much skill as piloting, and shooting with, an ADS is frankly offensive.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
973
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Posted - 2014.11.18 14:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:It's all subjective mate. Using swarms to take down a competent vehicle user is damn near impossible but given I've seen Atiim in action I don't doubt he could.
Thing is, downing a pilot isn't the only thing that is rewarded and the infantry can fit and operate in other roles without penalty (especially Commandos) to be useful. An ADS has limited transport/fitting capacity compared to the NDS and, as an assault vehicle, has a focus on attacking.
AV roles get WP for damaging and driving off vehicles: getting a heap of WP and forcing the pilot to run or die is not difficult. Conversely, getting a kill is pretty insane when a single AV player is present and active.
True Adamance wrote:However to be fair there isn't nearly as much skill in ADS or tank use as Vehicle pilots claim there is. It's all a matter of rolling up, shooting stuff, and running the **** away like a ***** when things seem to get too hot.
There is a ton more skill in operating an ADS than operating a swarm. FGs, PLCs and turrets have respect because they actually have drawbacks and have to work (read: aim) to get anything.
As an ADS pilot, getting kills when the enemy is looking askance at you is pretty damn difficult as every shot knocks you around. I'm not saying that vehicles are the hardest thing in the game, or that nothing else uses skill, but swarms require next to none to be effective, and a Swarmer with half a brain is almost as effective as the most amazing Swarmer.
Breakin Stuff wrote:The fact that you find Atiim's assessment of skill offensive tells me everything I need to know.
Came hoping for reasonable posting.
Left disappointed.
You disagree that swarms require next to no skill to use? You think it reasonable that ADS can slaughter unprepared infantry, but the moment an AV is brought out the 'balance' is entirely flipped?
I'd much rather be fragile but able to contribute in short bursts then stomp on MLT infantry until some random, invisible swarm pops up and gets 150WP. Give me the ability to perform the strafing runs that Rattati said I should be doing and an make me more vulnerable to AV... I just hate this limbo of roles.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Nothing useful here. Just ranting.
Assault forge still beats swarms for vehicle decimation. Will continue not skilling swarms
Good for you. I hate but respect a good forger. Forging requires effort, practice and actual fitting sacrifice.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
973
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Posted - 2014.11.18 15:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:The fact that disagreement was had with Atiim's assessment was found isn't my problem.
I consider the assertion that atiim disagreement with your no skill assessment being somehow offensive to be arrogant in the extreme and contempt-worthy at best.
Keep making comments on that vein if you want to be a jackass and a troll, not if you want your opinion to be taken as more than akin to a five year old throwing a tantrum.
At this point, vehicle pilots have had their opinions ignored even while lambasted by Rattati for not contributing; especially considering the huge amount of feedback given in the past month or two (even more so when we have no contact with Rattati, who simply ignores vehicle threads.) Frankly, the idea that swarms require skill is offensive: I'm a tourist Swarmer and I perform more than averagely any time I pull one out, which is one of the reasons I use PLCs and my railbus most of the time (it's more interesting.)
There is no weapon in the game that requires less skill to utilise as effectively as the swarm launcher. That is a pretty simple statement and one I feel very confident in maintaining, because I have yet to see anything to disprove the notion.
At the end of the day, my disagreement stems from the fact that the counter to my preferred role (DS, primarily ADS, pilot) is both powerful and incredibly easy to operate while my role is difficult to even begin. If I were allowed to do the things I am told to do and they actually helped, I wouldn't have an issue, even if nothing changed about the swarms.
I run ADS in almost every combination: as a solo pilot; as a pilot with gunner(s); as a gunner - nothing helps against that Swarmer unless they spawn in directly in the line of fire, or straight into a missile. The reason it is offensive to say that swarms require as much skill is because it belittles how much effort is put into flying a dropship effectively: it takes a small measure of skill to simply stay aloft, and shooting while flying is harder than most make out; shooting while under fired even more so.
Call it a tantrum, fine. Think less of me, fine; I don't need your favour or high opinion, I just want to find balance for my ships as their ascribed role has been determined.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
975
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Posted - 2014.11.18 15:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Getting buttmad and offended instead of actually posting with suggestions on how to repair a percieved problem is pretty much normally my signal to see just how mad you can get. Same for every other AV gunner posting on the forums.
It's not hard: be constructive, act like a grownup, get treated like you actually dress yourself in the morning. Act all buttmad and offended because someone disagrees with you and it's basically holding up the neon sign reading TROLLS COME TO ME.
Man up and do the legwork like the rest of us. Perhaps you too can achieve the power of posting constructively and trolling with a single statement.
I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over how I did that already.
You seem to think I haven't done the legwork that I haven't contributed, that I don't provide feedback on AV/V threads as they pop up. I do, I have, I will.
Again though, I haven't seen anything that disproves the 'swarms are ridiculously easy to use' point, and considering that whenever I get AV'd the primary culprit is swarms...because every merc and their dog pulls one out any time a dropship dares to try to help their team. I got mad at Atiim, because I see the same sentiment posted repeatedly that swarms require skill.
There is little wrong with the balance of AV doing damage, and the application of damage by FGs and turrets is fine. Swarm application is insanely easy; PLC application (unless poi t blank vs a HAV) is hard. There is something wrong with the application of ADS in general: it's either farm helpless infantry or run in fear of a half-awake STD Swarmer.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
982
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Posted - 2014.11.20 00:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:It's not about winning the argument. It's about you realising that you need to make concessions while you argue, as you are not looking at this impartially and like most Dropship Pilots are inclined to do exaggeration is very much so present in your previous posts when you discussed AV.
What is exaggerated about this statement then:
If an ADS is engaging infantry (or an HAV) and a Swarmer of STD or higher tier is pulled out, the ADS has a very small window (around 2-4s, depending on tier of the swarms) to attempt to kill the swarmer. If the target is more important (to the team, or to whoever) then you have that amount of time to finish them. If the target/Swarmer is not dealt with within that window, the ADS must disengage or face destruction at the hands of the Swarmer.
I have swarmed all of my DUST career, and I have had Operation 3 only since about Uprising 1.1. As a tourist Swarmer I have no issues chasing off an ADS: they either get lucky and land a shot on me (lucky because of the insane impulse effects) or they have to run...after I've glutted myself on vehicle damage WP. Just yesterday I was in a battle and had two rail HAVs pinned down by me alone and got around 800-1000WP from them just spamming swarms at them. They could use cover to evade the occasional volley. Unlike almost any ADS.
Quite simply, swarms have an incredibly easy time applying their damage to an ADS due to several factors:
1) Lock-on time, even at low tiers, is pretty fast
2) Swarms will very, very often have the first mover advantage: they will get their first volley off before the target is aware of their presence
3) Impulse effects will either substantially hamper/outright prevent the ADSs retaliation,allowing further volleys/reloads to be performed in relative security
4) With increased speed, the ADS has little to no chance to evade the swarms: using cover is untenable (you will be unlike to dodge behind cover, and they still go around; you might get propelled into said cover)
Now, the ADS has a bevy of its own advantages (high damage per missile; the capacity to disengage) but the issue is the imbalance of engagements. My solution?
- Introduction very rapid-firing variant turrets (with balanced damage application: so higher radius, but lower damage, for example)
- Reduce the potential EHP ceiling of the ADS
- Introduce a lock-on warning for swarms (as the only lock-on weapon present)
- Introduce racial weapons to level the field (one of the biggest issues we have is the lack of reasonably effective anti-shield AV weaponry)
With these four steps, we could actually see ADSs performing their role (strafing runs) against ground targets while being reasonably vulnerable to ground AV (Rails and FGs, plus whatever direct fire anti-shield weapons, would be able to bring them down in 1-2 shots is my thinking,but high speed makes that hard.) The further introduction of other vehicles would also help make for an interesting battlefield, though one of the other biggest issues we face is the tiny team size.
True Adamance wrote:Atiim is in a similar position. Most of the time his feed back as an AVer (specifically Swarmer) should be considered carefully. He knows what he is talking about and if we as Vehicle users want meaningful balance have to listen to AV users and consider what they say.
I do want to address this: probably every post I see of Atiim talking about an ADS from the pilot POV is utter nonsense. Almost everything he says about flying from his POV is entirely against what every ADS pilot I've spoken to or read about thinks. Meaningful balance doesn't come when one side is constantly demonized by the other,and that demonization is supported by the Devs: removal of the ROF bonus was a death sentence for any strafing run notions - Numnutz and I have performed dozens of strafing runs with the old ROF bonus. Now? Impossible, even with pilot stacking (which we only do because we enjoy flying together) with both maxed out.
It is a requisite of an ADS to hover to engage: something which all AVers appear to find abhorrent,and with which Rattati agrees, apparently. We have a good half a dozen ADS rebalance/turret variant threads floating about that are trying to give feedback - my own had Atiim jump in shout, "OP!" with zero feedback. With that kind of 'meaningful' contribution, why must we try and pay attention?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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