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Thang Bausch
Pierrot Le Fou Industries
258
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Posted - 2014.11.16 16:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:EWAR scout: vs EWAR Assault:
I can see more
See farther
Remain invisible
Faster
Smaller hit box
Same DPS
More equipment
Bricktanked scout vs bricktanked Assault
The scout still:
Sees more
Sees farther
Remains invisible
Faster
Smaller hitbox
Equivalent DPS
Same eHP
More equipment
All skill of course.
But as everyone knows the biggest problem with the game is assault dropships of course. Now they're OP.
Well, the brick tanked scout does not have the same eHP, just similar, but your point still stands: scouts are still vastly superior to assaults.
To be honest, I don't get all the cry about the cloak. The cloak doesn't make the scout class OP IMO. Its the complete lack of effective counters to a scout's ewar capabilities that make it crazy OP. The only way to see anything more than a mildly dampened scout is to run a scout suit.
A logi with 4 complex precisions mods can't see a mildly dampened scout on their passive scans and logis have the best scan precision of the medium and heavy suits. Considering logis have base HP closer to scouts than assaults, the logi would likely have less HP than the scout.
Sneaking up on units that are engaged in a fire fight is easy to do if you do not show up on their passive scans. I've done it in an assault suit with no dampening modules, my dampening skill only at 4, and no cloak. Even though I was using non-OHK weapons like the flaylock/smg and my gun game is meh at best, I still could fairly consistently come out of matches with positive kdr.
Running a gal logi with active scans is not actually an effective counter because the cool down, and limited range leaves massive spatial and temporal holes and scouts get warnings when they are actually scanned. Active scans in non-gal logis are useless (I prevent scans in my logi suit with no dampening modules equipped; I evade simply because I have dampening to lvl 5).
So, all of this means that a gal or cal scout can run one dampening module and brick tank their HP to the lower HP range of an assault, and still not be seen. Amar/min scouts would need to run two complex dampening modules to be invisible, but if the logi ran only 2 complex dampening modules, one dampening module is enough. You'd be a fool to use your cloak when you are close to them because that is the only thing other than the kill screen that would alert a solitary player of your presence.
Two players? EITHER: OHK the first -> second player starts to react because they heard your shotgun/knives -> OHK the second, OR: drop 1-2 RE and OHK them both.
Three players? EITHER: Drop 1-2 REs and OHK them all, OR: OHK the first -> second and third player starts to react because they heard your shotgun/knives -> OHK the second -> use superior speed and small hit box to engage in a fire fight with the third or run away, OR: pull back -> wait for one of them to split from the group -> see steps for single player engagement.
Don't get me wrong here: there is still skill in delivering the OHK. However, the completely unbalanced ewar tips engagements massively in the scout's favour.
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Thang Bausch
Pierrot Le Fou Industries
258
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 17:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:People are crying because they don't have a thing called Situational Awareness. It's unfortunate. Scouts shouldn't have been nerfed this much
Situational awareness?!? I don't call having to have someone on your squad do nothing but look out for scouts situational awareness. |
Thang Bausch
Pierrot Le Fou Industries
258
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 17:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thang Bausch wrote:Well, the brick tanked scout does not have the same eHP, just similar, but your point still stands: scouts are still vastly superior to assaults.
To be honest, I don't get all the cry about the cloak. The cloak doesn't make the scout class OP IMO. Its the complete lack of effective counters to a scout's ewar capabilities that make it crazy OP. The only way to see anything more than a mildly dampened scout is to run a scout suit.
A logi with 4 complex precisions mods can't see a mildly dampened scout on their passive scans and logis have the best scan precision of the medium and heavy suits. Considering logis have base HP closer to scouts than assaults, the logi would likely have less HP than the scout.
Sneaking up on units that are engaged in a fire fight is easy to do if you do not show up on their passive scans. I've done it in an assault suit with no dampening modules, my dampening skill only at 4, and no cloak. Even though I was using non-OHK weapons like the flaylock/smg and my gun game is meh at best, I still could fairly consistently come out of matches with positive kdr.
Running a gal logi with active scans is not actually an effective counter because the cool down, and limited range leaves massive spatial and temporal holes and scouts get warnings when they are actually scanned. Active scans in non-gal logis are useless (I prevent scans in my logi suit with no dampening modules equipped; I evade simply because I have dampening to lvl 5).
So, all of this means that a gal or cal scout can run one dampening module and brick tank their HP to the lower HP range of an assault, and still not be seen. Amar/min scouts would need to run two complex dampening modules to be invisible, but if the logi ran only 2 complex dampening modules, one dampening module is enough. You'd be a fool to use your cloak when you are close to them because that is the only thing other than the kill screen that would alert a solitary player of your presence.
Two players? EITHER: OHK the first -> second player starts to react because they heard your shotgun/knives -> OHK the second, OR: drop 1-2 RE and OHK them both.
Three players? EITHER: Drop 1-2 REs and OHK them all, OR: OHK the first -> second and third player starts to react because they heard your shotgun/knives -> OHK the second -> use superior speed and small hit box to engage in a fire fight with the third or run away, OR: pull back -> wait for one of them to split from the group -> see steps for single player engagement.
Don't get me wrong here: there is still skill in delivering the OHK. However, the completely unbalanced ewar tips engagements massively in the scout's favour.
Just looked at the ewar numbers of scout suits and realized that a proto amarr scout running two complex precision modes cannot see a gal scout running two complex dampeners, so running scout suit isn't even an effective counter to scout ewar.
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Thang Bausch
Pierrot Le Fou Industries
258
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 18:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:Thang Bausch wrote:Zindorak wrote:People are crying because they don't have a thing called Situational Awareness. It's unfortunate. Scouts shouldn't have been nerfed this much Situational awareness?!? I don't call having to have someone on your squad do nothing but look out for scouts situational awareness. Yes the scout should be feared like any other suit in the game
This is the ONLY effective counter to a scout suit's ewar. The heavy suit's high HP and damage resistance has huge number of counters to it when running a HMG: - plasma cannon on any suit except a logi suit (on a commando this is an amazing counter) - any heavy suit with a HMG - any non-heavy suit with a range weapon out of a HMG's range (assuming - shotgun/knives on a scout suit - shotgun on any assault or commando suit - REs on any suit
And a scout's ewar has only one effective counter: - a squad member on each squad doing nothing but visually looking for a scout, which given the high HP of a tanked scout in many circumstances means them dying before they take out the scout and warning the squad members so they hopefully finish him off before he kills another squad member.
No tactic should have such limited counters. Ewar imbalance is more unbalanced than redline sniping. At least when someone redline snipes, I can counter snipe, or forge snipe. That is too few counters but it is still better than scout ewar.
Scouts should have to choose between having HP or being invisible. Currently they can have the best of both worlds. There are different ways of balancing this, but nerfing the cloak is not one of them.
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Thang Bausch
Pierrot Le Fou Industries
258
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 18:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:For a little perspective, I'm someone who had played with scouts during precloak, when cloaks were first released, and currently an someone who respec'd into just Amarr scouts with 43M SP.
Honestly scout gameplay is the most fun it had ever been for me. The cloak is more of a transpotation tool rather than a killing tool, as it was intended. There's more risk reward choices with whether I want to patrol my own base cloaked or not because of scan range. Same with when I'm hacking. Also risk reward deciding how early I want to decloak because it does take time. Makes scout play a lit mute fun and rewarding in my opinion. Not long ago, Ghost ran a heavy with an Amarr scout decked with precision mods in tow. If I given the current situation, if I were to even attempt to approach that situation, I would need to decloak, and be inactive long enough for Ghost to have turned around and gunned me down. With EWAR so significantly tied to cloaks, it is much more than a risk/reward situation. I don't know who has what when entering an area. If I am lazy and assume that its all heavies and scouts with no precision, then I end up in a situation where everyone knows where my squishy suit is. Not to mention the Min Assault that was able to take me out from 9 m away because I happened to run in front of him coming out of cover outside of any building or built up area. I am damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I use cover because of how easily it is to spot "invisible" cloaked scouts, I limit my own field of view. If I use cover like I should, I have zero ability to avoid heavy/medium suits out and about. In fact, last time I was out transporting, I did it old school and did not activate my cloak, and took the very long route. The ONLY thing it is good for is avoiding being lit up on someone's tacnet. For everything else I find it useless.
but it only dampens by 10% at proto. Why would you need this dampening when you can run 1-2 complex dampener and not be seen on just about everyone's passive scans?
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